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Female Circumcision

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19 replies to this topic

#1
Dravanivin

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Thoughts about about female circumcision are generally followed by that funny face people make when they smell curdled milk or hear nails on a chalkboard. There's good reason for that, generally the thought of scalpals and genitals in the same vicinity provides all the basics needed for such a response.

But how much do you really know about female circumcision? I know I learned quite a bit while researching this, things I didn't even think about.

**Warning, image is very graphic**
http://img69.exs.cx/...82/femcirc1.jpg

...is a destructive, invasive procedure that is usually performed on girls before puberty. Part or all of the clitoris is surgically removed. This leaves them with reduced or no sexual feeling. Orgasms are sometimes impossible to experience later in life. Many health problems result from the surgery.  Originated in Africa, it was, and remains, a cultural, not a religious practice.

Among individuals and groups opposed to the mutilation, it is seen as a method of reducing the sexual response of women in order to make them less likely to become sexually active before marriage or to seek an extra-marital affair after marriage.

The operation is forced on approximately 6,000 girls per day, worldwide -- about one every 15 seconds.

All this information is here:
http://www.religious...rg/fem_cirm.htm

To paint a clearer picture of what people think when they think of female circumcision as it's drawn in more masculine terms.

To get a grasp on the difference between the two practices, imagine if the entire head of the man’s penis were simply lobbed off! Or, after lobbing off the head of the penis, the remaining shaft was shoved between his balls and his scrotum stitched up over it so that it was completely unreachable. Then, years later, imagine a woman whipping out a dull knife, slicing open the now fused flesh of his scrotum, pulling free his bloody rod and then hopping aboard the remains of his dick for a short, self-gratifying ride while he tried to choke down his screams.

Paints a very unpleasant picture. I know I just caught a wiff of bad milk.
They further describe the complications from such a proceedure. Now, if this doesn't get you pissed nothing will.

There is no concrete data as to how many children die from complications related to this procedure, but it is extrapolated that one-third of girls undergoing FGM will die. Some go into shock, others hemorrhage, still others succumb to infection. If they survive all this, then there is the high occurrence of swelling or tissue mutilation that will at some point cause them to have urinary tract or menstrual complications -- which sometimes lead to death. In fact, infibulation (in which the girl is snipped, scraped, shaved, and stitched up so that her private region resembles a fleshy ostrich egg) does at times lead to scar tissues sealing up the vagina so completely that menstrual fluids begin collecting in the womb and vagina. Some times the resultant abdominal swelling and behavior changes are mistaken for early pregnancy and the girl is killed by her outraged relatives.

http://www.rotten.co...mcision/female/
The tools to do this are generally wielded by someone who's about this experienced and who has about this much equipment at their disposal.
Posted Image

You ready? Here's the mind blower. This practice happens in the United States and many other industrialized nations all the time. Many of these very women have talked about their experiences with it.

The results of the operation were wonderful and I only wish I had known about it sooner.
Kathy (USA)

Female circumcision is an operation not widely known by females - and usually not widely known by doctors who may be called upon to practice it. I had some pain during healing, but that has been minimal. Healing has been rapid.
Cindy (USA)

There's a reason why the information here may seem inconsistant. While everything you've read is true you've been reading about two different things. Female circumcision generally refers to the removal of the womans "hood", the flap of skin that surrounds the clit. Also, this can include portions of the labia as well. What is described above is commonly called female circumcision but in truth is better described as female genital mutilation (FGM).
Posted Image
Many women have found this form of circumcision to enhance their sex lives tremendously. Much of this website is devoted to explaining the positives.
**Warning, graphic content**
http://www.circlist....anatfemale.html

Obviously, female genital mutilation a terrible and horrific thing. I'm sure we can all agree on that. Female circumcision on the other hand seems to be a possible positive thing for the right people.

So ladies, if your "special showers" aren't doing the trick (yes, I know all too well about "special showers") or your finding it hard to be stimulated you may have a touch too much skin in the nether region. Talk to your doctor and discuss improving your sex life. You never know, you might be the next woman to get circumcised.

#2
Archangel

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I wasn't aware that labiectomy was referred to as circumcision as well. That term, as mentioned above, was typically used to describe the horrible practice of female genital mutilation.

I've already made my thoughts about circumcision known in the other thread, so as far as I'm concerned women who elect this surgery (and I mean labiectomy as opposed to the procedure of barbaric genital mutilation) are doing it because they want to as opposed to having it imposed on them....and that's the way it should be.

#3
Aaron

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Well done Drav, your research was astounding!

So then, I guess we need to kick this discussion off right. There are some obvious benefits to female circumcision, if it is preformed correctly in the right environment. When I originally thought of this idea I was more looking at it from the third world perspective, where young girls are unceremoniously parted from their clitoris with no say so whatsoever. There have even be documented cases of the surgery being preformed with a broken piece of glass when a knife wasn’t handy.

I guess it’s more of a human rights issue. Is it right to be able to do this to young women? Is it really all that different than the practices that go on in the United States in regards to circumcising infant male children? Granted, what is done to male children in the US is a little less invasive with less likelihood for complications, but it’s still destroying the genitals of a child…

#4
Putredinis

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In Denmark there have been (and still is) several cases where young girls were had an FGM. It was aired on TV once(faces blurred), with an undercover journalist who attended a FGM "ritual".
The worst part of all this was the screams you could hear from the little girl. They did it on the kitchen table with a simple knife.
Some of the women/girls who do this, sometimes volunteer doing this because they've been "brainwashed" into thinking it's the correct thing to do.
I experienced that this (In Denmark anyway) is a taboo, and maybe that is why it still happens in modern countries, where it can be minimized. On the contrary I think it's very hard to prevent it from happening in Africa because, as Drav wrote; It's a cultural practice, which means it's not 40 families doing it but thousands.


I can't see anything wrong with the circumcision as it doesn't cause damage to your sex-life(in most cases) and (according to some) improves it, and this is like circumcizing a male and usually one is not forced to do this, and even if one is it's not as damaging as getting your clitoris removed.

#5
Dravanivin

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I guess it’s more of a human rights issue. Is it right to be able to do this to young women? Is it really all that different than the practices that go on in the United States in regards to circumcising infant male children? Granted, what is done to male children in the US is a little less invasive with less likelihood for complications, but it’s still destroying the genitals of a child…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't think anyone is going to argue that female genital mutilation is right or should be done young women.

You ask if it's all that different from a boy being circumcised and I would say that the differences are documentable by volumes. When a boy is curcumcised he can still have sex, acheive sexual fullfilment and go the whole of his life generally unaffected by the proceedure and its results. What FGM does to women as they grow older is anything but invisible. They don't enjoy intercourse and often it becomes extremely painful to have sex. Often there are complications which introduce further worlds of difficulty and complication.

No, I don't believe they're in the same ballpark, it's not even the same sport.

Thankfully, it seems that some people are recognizing the dangers and unpleasantness and saying "no".

Genet wore a placard saying: "I am not circumcised, learn from me." Her groom wore a matching one that said: "I am happy to be marrying an uncircumcised woman."

http://images.google...htt...ff=1&sa=G

#6
Aaron

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I don't think anyone is going to argue that female genital mutilation is right or should be done young women.


I can think of a few people who would disagree, I'm sure we could find at least one or two people in the 28 countries that still practice FGM in Africa alone.

It's not fair to look at the issue with a Western mindframe, especially when it's part of another cultures heritage.

You ask if it's all that different from a boy being circumcised and I would say that the differences are documentable by volumes.  When a boy is curcumcised he can still have sex, acheive sexual fullfilment and go the whole of his life generally unaffected by the proceedure and its results.  What FGM does to women as they grow older is anything but invisible.  They don't enjoy intercourse and often it becomes extremely painful to have sex.  Often there are complications which introduce further worlds of difficulty and complication.


They are both preformed without the consent of the child.
They are both a form of genital mutilation.
They both have repercussions that affect the individual later in life.
They both decrease the sensuality of sex.
They both are unnecessary archaic practices that have no real benefit.

They might not be the exact same sport, but they are both played on the same field…

#7
Dravanivin

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I can think of a few people who would disagree, I'm sure we could find at least one or two people in the 28 countries that still practice FGM in Africa alone.

It's not fair to look at the issue with a Western mindframe, especially when it's part of another cultures heritage.
They are both preformed without the consent of the child.
They are both a form of genital mutilation.
They both have repercussions that affect the individual later in life.
They both decrease the sensuality of sex.
They both are unnecessary archaic practices that have no real benefit.

They might not be the exact same sport, but they are both played on the same field…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, I know there are proponents of fgm but not on this board, that's what I was saying. :)

While your list is drawing on the similarities between the two I disagree that both are mutilation. Male circumcision isn't mutilation in my opinion. It may not be necessary but it's not archaic as there is some benefit to getting circumcised. It helps prevent uncomfortable infections and keep maintanence down there pretty easy. There's no repercussions from male circumcision later in life, at least none that I've noticed. Where are you drawing that from?

Overall there are similarities but none that are quite as damning as you suggest.

#8
Aaron

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The only benefit that you can come up with is that it is easier to take care of and infections are not a concern after circumcision? *Gasps*

Do you know what that little piece of foreskin is that they cut off? It’s a big bundle of nerve endings. Imagine how hard it would be for a blind person to read brail without their fingertips…

As far as a preventative for infections, that’s the person’s fault for not properly cleaning themselves.

I will agree that it is a much bigger issue for young girls, there is a virtual world of negative consequences that they are faced with after the procedure, I was just trying to make a comparison between the genders, I don’t think it’s right to do it to boys or girls…

#9
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OMG, I cringe just to think of a male being circumcised, I wasn't aware there was that done on girls. I kinda feel the whole thing is pointless, ours bodies were made that way, there's no reason to mess with them. I'd rather keep myself intact rather than risk a serious problem, infections, or not be able to achieve an orgasm. I can't beleive some of the things other cultures and countries do.

#10
Azriela

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Sadly this is common place in some countries in Africa and in various parts around the globe. It is painful to read . . though it has been going on for a long time and I have been aware of the practices for a long time. I couldn’t imagine going through that .. . I don’t think I’d be the same mentally.

For those who see nothing wrong with it send your daughters/girlfriends/wives to get one and you’ll see the difference when they return . . .if they are stupid enough to come back.

I don’t see how it can be voluntary on the part of the female . . “Hi, I’d like my clit cut off” seems a bit much for educated women . .. but then again brainwashing is an art form.

I’m baffled I don’t even know what to say.

#11
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O.M.G. I was actually aware that this happened but its still a big shock to know that it still happens. Our bodies are beautiful and we shouldn't mess with them, and when I think of what happens to those poor girls it makes me want to puke. That is a horrible barbaric practice and I don't think anyone would undergo it willingly

#12
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O.M.G. I was actually aware that this happened but its still a big shock to know that it still happens. Our bodies are beautiful and we shouldn't mess with them, and when I think of what happens to those poor girls it makes me want to puke. That is a horrible barbaric practice and I don't think anyone would undergo it willingly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Didn't it say some get it done willingly? Or did I miss read something?

#13
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If it's a cultural thing it's probably some are conformitive (read: brainwashed or illusionate) enough to undergo it voluntarily. Doesn't make it any better... worse, actualy, since people like that are more likely to in turn keep the tradition up for their own children.

The practise (mutiliating one) disgusts me. It's a prime example of the sheer damage that can be done by people who refuse to question a set norm.

Edited by Raza Darquane, 24 September 2004 - 12:34 PM.


#14
Dravanivin

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The only benefit that you can come up with is that it is easier to take care of and infections are not a concern after circumcision? *Gasps*

Do you know what that little piece of foreskin is that they cut off? It’s a big bundle of nerve endings. Imagine how hard it would be for a blind person to read brail without their fingertips…

As far as a preventative for infections, that’s the person’s fault for not properly cleaning themselves.

I will agree that it is a much bigger issue for young girls, there is a virtual world of negative consequences that they are faced with after the procedure, I was just trying to make a comparison between the genders, I don’t think it’s right to do it to boys or girls…

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Why does there even have to be a benefit? More or less it's little different (for males) than getting their ears pierced. C'mon Aaron, comparing the blind without fingertips to a man without his foreskin? What relevance does one have to the other? Foreskin is vestigial on a man and a woman, fingertips are not.

I think circumcision, be it on a male or a female does little to no damage to them psycholocigally or physically if the proceedure is done properly. You're removing a part of the body that serves little to no function.

#15
Aaron

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The blind person fingertip thing was to get across the point of how it limits feeling during sex, it drastically reduces sensation...

And as far as the “it’s no different than getting your ears pierced” as far as pain goes, *coughbullshitcough* Why is it that you think they do it to infants? It’s because they don’t have well developed pain-sensing capabilities. It’s one of the most painful procedures a man can go through… That’s why men that haven’t had it done don’t generally go through with it as an adult, it is painful as hell…

The clitoris is the pleasure center for the woman, that's where almost all of their feeling comes from, to say that removing it does no damage to them physically may be technically correct, it's also fair to say it doesn't do them any good either... Why cut off something for no other reason than to limit sexual pleasure? "Same goes for a man as well"... If we weren't meant to have them we wouldn't have been born with them...

How about instead of removing the clitoris from a woman to limit promiscuity we instead cut off their legs, that way there sure as hell not getting out of the house and they can still enjoy sex… “Yes, that was sarcasm, but it makes about the same amount of sense as FGM”…

Edited by Aaron, 24 September 2004 - 02:08 PM.


#16
Sunshine

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What they are doing to the women is pretty much getting the same result of chopping off a mans penis. Without that part there would be very little, to none, sexual pleasure.

#17
Dravanivin

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How do you know it drastically reduces sensation? I feel things just fine.

My comments weren't about FGM, removing portions of the hood or labia aren't damaging, that's what I'm saying. The clit is important, I'm not going to argue there and in no way am I supporting that it ever be done. :)

I'm sure circumcision is painful for both men and women in adult life, but I'm talking about infants. I don't remember the pain involved in circumcision, I'm not upset that I was circumcised, as far as I'm concerned my parents simply followed the majority of the population by having me cut.

#18
Aaron

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How do you know it drastically reduces sensation?  I feel things just fine.

I know people who have had it done later in life, the comparison of sex before and after circumcision is about the same as night and day...

I'm not upset that I was circumcised, as far as I'm concerned my parents simply followed the majority of the population by having me cut.

Since when does following the crowd make it right? I'm not picking on you per say I'm just saying I wish I had the option before someone cut off part of my body...

#19
Dravanivin

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Since when does following the crowd make it right? I'm not picking on you per say I'm just saying I wish I had the option before someone cut off part of my body...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I know you're not picking on me. We're just debating. :)

I'm not justifying their reasons, I'm just giving you what I thought their reason was. While I'm sure it would have been nice to have the option obviously neither of us had it. But really, what option is there? If you don't get cut when you're fresh from mama's sack silt and grow up with foreskin are you really going to lop it off? As you said it's extremely painful to have it removed when you're older. You can't decide at infancy and deciding as an adult can cause a great deal of trauma or pain. What then is the right answer?

Should females be circumcised (not mutilated) at birth to ensure less problems in the future as well as better sex?

#20
Aaron

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I believe circumcision is wrong whether you are a child or an adult. I believe you were born a certain way and you should remain that way regardless of what seems to be fashionable at the time. Male circumcision originated as part of Jewish bylaw “or some such biblical thing”, and has been carried on for countless generations because people fail to see that just because a book tells you to do something you don’t necessarily have to, especially when it’s an outdated and archaic belief that holds no real value.

Circumcision is nothing more than unneeded genital mutilation, it is barbaric and if I had any say so in the matter I would institute a world wide torture system for any parent that would allow their child to be put through such a horrific practice. It is wrong and it is about time everyone woke the fuck up and saw how mortifying it really is…