9 replies to this topic

[Rhuen]

Was watching the show (Haunted Highway), they have two teams of just two people filming everything themselves looking for ghosts and monsters across America *a neat idea, this country is full of monsters that no one looks for because most are chalked up to urban legends, mythology, or folklore and people refuse to take them seriously*

but one part of an episode stuck out to me as funny; the team looking for the Skin Stealer; they heard it was a demonic entity that drains life essence out of sleeping people in the swamp and produces a cold spot above the victim. Now at one point a local Shaman of an African faith stated that the skin stealer is not a ghost but a conjurer projecting himself to take life essence from people. the girl on the team laughed when he said this; and I noticed the rest of the investigation they never once entertained the idea if could be magic; they entertained ghosts and demons...

this is just like my faeries vs ghosts thread; why is one thing more believable than the other?

So dead people choking living people or invisible monsters are more believable than a human being knowing magic who can project himself and drain people / cause them harm in their sleep?

hell, what he described is pretty common in sorcery circles and folklore around the world.

I might guess that entertaining the idea could cause people to suspect each other, but I didn't get the vibe they wanted to gloss over it for that reason.

[TheUnknowable]

Sounds kind of like a Strega to me. Even the "sorcerer stealing life-force" part fits.

I guess it's easier to say "a demon's doing it". Practically every religion has demons and angels. Several either have powers restricted to special people or those gifted by God(s). Or they are given power by demons. People having powers like demons on their own though....

[Arawan]

Well, I think it has to do with the performance of these things under controlled conditions, which has yet to pan out. I think it's a bit distinct from psychic abilities, they have the out of being born "special". Magic, however, has the fault of being a study rather than a gift (for the most part), so anyone should be able do something basic after enough study. Creatures, on the other hand, can remain elusive from the people searching for them. Personally, I don't believe demons ever have a true, permanent corporeal form that someone could go looking for.

[KellyScarletRakoczy]

Arawan is right; demons do not have a permanent corporeal form. Not only that, they have to be summoned using specific methods (most magickians use Solomonic magick,; some aren't even psychic but know how to invoke). They can cause problems if they are not banished. Most likely, they are going to give trouble to the magickian who invoked them and did not do a proper banishing. Truly, they are from another realm and prefer to go back to that realm.

The above sounds like magick, a type of psi vampyrism. Swamp creatures, such as the Loogaroo, are skinwalkers (humanoids able to shapeshift into anything). Elemental such as faeries, undines, sylphs, salamanders, and such are not "demons."

Edited by KellyScarletRakoczy, 31 July 2012 - 12:18 PM.

[Arawan]

Arawan is right; demons do not have a permanent corporeal form. Not only that, they have to be summoned using specific methods (most magickians use Solomonic magick,; some aren't even psychic but know how to invoke). They can cause problems if they are not banished. Most likely, they are going to give trouble to the magickian who invoked them and did not do a proper banishing. Truly, they are from another realm and prefer to go back to that realm.

The above sounds like magick, a type of psi vampyrism. Swamp creatures, such as the Loogaroo, are skinwalkers (humanoids able to shapeshift into anything). Elemental such as faeries, undines, sylphs, salamanders, and such are not "demons."

That's another thing I disagree with. I don't believe demons can be summoned either. I believe you can open yourself up to attack from demons by doing such things. I don't think anyone will be surprised I follow the Catholic teachings on this. We, as beings with free will, can give permission to a demon to attack us and eventually possess us. We have no inherent power over them and they have no inherent power over us, they can only act with the constraints of what God allows. So the question becomes why would God allow it at all? It falls into the parental concept, ever heard of giving a child a minor burn on the fingers after playing with matches? Now, if you make the fundamental choice to turn away from God, then you're choosing not to accept His intercession.

This being said, demonic possession is extremely rare and the Church has psychologist on staff solely to examine the cases for mental illness.

[Rhuen]

don't try to understand the reasoning of anything you believe to be omnipotent for its thought process would be beyond your ability to comprehend.

Demon in the teachings I follow is a buzzword given by people who like to neatly group things as black or white to anything supernatural that shows any malicious behavior towards humans or does not show humans any concern (ambivilant to humanity seems to have made some people in the past label somethings as demons).

I personally follow the teaching that many things regarded as demons, that follow specific rules and adhere to specific symbols and conditions are actually advanced Tulpas formed by the collective belief of people and set loose into the world, acting as they imagined they would act. In other words you may very well have loosed your own hard lessons upon yourselves.

But that said Arawn, the idea here is that demons in this culture have become easier to accept than sorcery. In other words invisible monsters that you can't see or do anything about for the most part instead of a corporial person or being doing it.

I just find it amusing that a way of thinking exists that can say, "What? A person is astral projecting and draining my vitality to make himself healthier? Oh pish posh, its obvisouly an invisible monster lurking in the swamps doing it or perhaps the angry ghost of someone who died here"

Just a thought on that, if you believe a person's ghost can do it, then why is it hard to believe a living person could do it?

[Arawan]

But that said Arawn, the idea here is that demons in this culture have become easier to accept than sorcery. In other words invisible monsters that you can't see or do anything about for the most part instead of a corporial person or being doing it.

I just find it amusing that a way of thinking exists that can say, "What? A person is astral projecting and draining my vitality to make himself healthier? Oh pish posh, its obvisouly an invisible monster lurking in the swamps doing it or perhaps the angry ghost of someone who died here"

Just a thought on that, if you believe a person's ghost can do it, then why is it hard to believe a living person could do it?

Well, demons are more accepted in the US society because our society is predominantly dominated by Christians and, again, sorcrey or witchcraft or magic is supposed to be study that any one would eventually be able to actualize at a low level. I don't think it's so surprising.

Also, I don't believe in ghosts but they also have the benefit of being elusive.

[Rhuen]

Looking at these ghost hunting shows it seems like ghosts are under every other rock.

Also there is a healthy number of people who believe they can do magic at a low level, in fact technically speaking going by a book on superstitions many people practice it at the "old wives tale" level by doing things they think will increase their luck.

There is also some thoughts that magic is a skill that while anyone can learn at a very low level, it takes enate tallent *the spark* as it were to be able to be really good at it.

The Roma (Gypsies) for example believe that all women have psychic gifts, but have to be trained in how to use them.

Which is the crux, its like anyone can with training supposedly can run a marathon, perform in memory tournaments, spelling bees, matha-olympics, swim meets.

But two things are required, they have to be trained (in many cases specific kinds of training are required or else they screw up; like if you want to be a runner you have to focus on cardio and aerobic exercise, if you do body building you will not be a good runner) and the second it helps if you are physically or mentally pre-disposed.
I know it goes against the whole everyone is equal thing, but the reality is some individuals are pre-disposed to bulking up, or have different neural connections (like the guy that can do apparently just about any math problem in his head as fast as a calculator. He's not super-smart, its just that his brain does math in a different part of his brain than the average person; he is processing math in the visual and reflex parts of the brain (which process millions of variables in the environment at once so we can coordinate and see when we move around.)

Some people may simply be more predisposed to magic skills, and then if they get the right training or focus on it for that matter actually accomplish something with it.


So yeah with those variables, and the need for secrecy if you go beyond basic Wiccan stuff that can be doubted as serendipity by most who see it (the same treatment can be applied to any faith by those outside it).



Like the faerie thing there is also (social conditioning); I have found that in this culture, even skeptics are more accepting of (UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, and demons/inhuman hauntings) than anything else. Given what I know of psychology, this is most likely due to how prevalent these are in the culture and exposure to such as children and upwards more so than anything else supernatural (in the form of media shows that discuss if they are real on learning channels as well and being around people who discuss them). but so many other things in mass media are delegated to fiction, magic being one of them. Very seldom do people here as children see magic that they arn't told is fake *such as stage magicians, or reality breaking fairy godmother type stuff*, and the most magical things a child is told are real are discovered to be fake (Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy)

So it seems a social stigma is possibly produced in many a mind to delegate magic and anything that means "magic" into fiction.

A very likely reason for people who practice it to not want to use that term that adorns so many fake magic boxes; so they to remind themselves it is real put a K in the word, or use a more faith based or otherwise differentiating term like Witchcraft, Alchemic Spiritualism, SHamanism, Sorcery, ect...

[Layoralen]

I have never been able to understand why someone can say they believe in one thing but not the other. I was watching Xfiles the other day and it made me so frustrated when Skully would not believe in "paranormal" but she is supposed to be catholic and they have demons and angles. She would say she needs "scientific proof" that aliens, ghosts, magic etc. exist but nothing in her religion has been "scientifically proven."
My thought is that you should not be hypocritical, if you believe in something that is: 1) Not a proven fact and 2) Not a typical occurrence in nature, example: burning bush that talks, walking on water, healing the sick with a touch and coming back from the dead. Then you should not say that any other phenomenon does not exist.
Point is, I do not think there can be one without the possibility of the other, and that goes both ways.

Edited by Layoralen, 31 August 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[Vanok]

Under the right circumstances the spiritual realm and ours can connect and cause a counter balance between the two,thus bringing forth the demon or entity.Enchantments,conjurations and summoning a demon isnt necessarily impossible,but slightly real due to the fact of what i call (psychic-instability) common factors which include those who prey and dwell upon creatures when not actually knowing how to do so.Circles,triangles and magic spells>?
Must first have the skill to do so or face what you wish you had not.