35 replies to this topic

[Lethe]

What is the purpose of religion? Why did humans create it? And what is the purpose for it continuing to exist now? How does religion benefit people?

[MissL]

i think it gives hope to people...

[TheUnknowable]

1) give hope
2) explain that which science can't
3) provide a society with morals

[Etu_Malku]

It doesn't explain what science cannot

Religion provides comfort and consolation, fosters group togetherness and attempts to explain why we exist.
It is a byproduct of our survival mechanism.

[TheUnknowable]

oops, meant to say "tries to explain that which science doesn't" I meant "can't" as in, "their knowledge of science isn't good enough to explain that yet.

[Etu_Malku]

TheUnknowable, on 15 November 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

oops, meant to say "tries to explain that which science doesn't" I meant "can't" as in, "their knowledge of science isn't good enough to explain that yet.

[Caulfield]

What is the purpose of religion?

To bring one closer to perfection

Why did humans create it?

Because we rebelled against God

And what is the purpose for it continuing to exist now?

We still want to attain perfection on our own.

How does religion benefit people?

It provides frameworks within which to expand upon philosophical and metaphysical question regarding the nature of life, and how to attain perfection in this life.

[Etu_Malku]

Caulfield, on 16 November 2011 - 12:25 AM, said:

Why did humans create it?

Because we rebelled against God

Look dude, I haven't rebelled against any gods, so I don't need this phony salvation crap

[KellyScarletRakoczy]

Etu_Malku, on 16 November 2011 - 08:03 PM, said:

Look dude, I haven't rebelled against any gods, so I don't need this phony salvation crap

You didn't need to rebel; you are God - you look like Jesus in your avatar

Edited by KellyScarletRakoczy, 16 November 2011 - 08:35 PM.

[Caulfield]

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[TheHeartlessOne]

Isn't religion like a guide but in a story book form? You read it and you like what you read so you follow its morals which would explain the nutcases out there that take it "too" seriously.

Think about it, if we didn't have manuals on how do stuff like cooking and education then where would we be? This goes for what we believe to.

Its main strength is keeping a community together that can be a good thing and a bad thing

[Caulfield]

TheHeartlessOne, on 18 November 2011 - 02:00 AM, said:

Isn't religion like a guide but in a story book form? You read it and you like what you read so you follow its morals which would explain the nutcases out there that take it "too" seriously.

Well for a large swathe of my life I absolutely hated what I read but God refused to give up on me and kept me even though I longed and begged to be let go.

So while your statement may be generally true (though I in fact dispute that it is) it certainly isn't true for me.

[Adonis]

I think religion is just a way to govern people - a guide to perfection, or godliness. By following the rules of whatever religion you believe in, you're bringing yourself closer to God, and further away from 'sin' or 'chet' in Hebrew (missing the mark). I really like Cauliflower's first post in this thread, he explained it well.

[Caulfield]

As the brother of Christ wrote over 1900 years ago to a church of young, Jewish Christians and preserved in the Bible as the book of James, chapter 2 verses 21 through 27:

"Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in the mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was.

But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless.

Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep one-self unspotted from the world."


There is only one kind of undefiled religion, and its purpose is to turn those who have been saved by the implanted word of God into righteous followers of the word in this life. All other religion is useless, and will never achieve the perfection it aims for.

[UrbanDecay]

Religion's purpose is subjective. People do it for many different reasons, some healthy and some unhealthy.

The word of the judeo/christian god is meaningless to me, coming from a god who suffocates on his own knowledge or men who compete for monocultural sovereignty.

The proof is in the post above me. Who gives a fuck about perfection? The world is beautiful because of it's flaws, not despite them. No inch of this world is perfect,but much of it is beautiful. The same goes for a person. ALL aspects of living make a life complete, good or bad, and striving for a "pure" existence is just a balm used by those who can't come to terms with what living requires of a person.
"Perfection" is defilement, it blights away diversity and shrinks worlds. If we were all a bunch of pious nobodies there would be nothing to share with eachother in this world.

[Caulfield]

I see. It's mistreating poor, the murderers, the broken families through adultery, the slave-trade of young children for sex, the starvation of millions of people, the AIDS epidemic and all the other evils that make life worthwhile.

I can totally see why we should stop striving to make things better now.

[UrbanDecay]

Typical of a person who is presented with an idea he does not understand to use extremes to denounce it.

There will always be diseases, there will always be pain. Bliss means nothing without pain, it is a simple fact of living.
Honor, Perseverance, and Mercy are tools used to make the lives of others better. It takes strength to exhibit compassion, to defend oneself, to forgive or to even keep a friend. These things are what shape our lives, not striving for "perfection".

Nature tells us a story of flaws, walk outside and you will see flaws abound. You will see where forests taper off into swamps, you will see scenes marred by brush and weeds.
You meet a person, and live with them, and you are exposed to their flaws. If your love for them is strong you will be endeared to them by those very flaws. be they physical or mental, those flaws define a person just as much as their beauty.

The simple fact is, if you search for perfection your whole life, you will be disappointed. It does not exist. You live to strengthen your name, and memory, by doing as much as you can and living exactly how you deem fit. And leaving others to do the same. The wicked are often shamed in death, a man who dies with no friends to tell his story breathed meaninglessly. This is the punishment for those who commit acts against life.

Striving to make things better is different than striving for perfection. Strive for something useful, like giving as many people freedom as possible. Liberating as many creative souls, creating diversity so that when a person is born they have much to explore and search for before they die. Those are useful things. Realistic things.

[Caulfield]

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The simple fact is, if you search for perfection your whole life, you will be disappointed. It does not exist

I personally know a man who lived a perfect life. Free from all wrong.

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Honor, Perseverance, and Mercy are tools used to make the lives of others better

These are also qualities that go toward attaining the "pure and undefiled religion" that James wrote of. Did you catch what the two qualities were? I'll quote them again for you:

"to visit orphans and widows in their troubles and to keep one unspotted from the world"

The word translated "visit" here is more than a cursory meeting. It means to engage deeply with, or get to the bottom of their troubles so as to provide help. Then the second part, to keep unspotted from the world, involves such virtues as Honor, Perseverance, and Mercy (also Love, Justice, Compassion, Charity, Wisdom, Meekness etc).

These things are not to be found in the flawed natural world, but rise above it. As though they are qualities of a better, or perfect state of being.

I can only assume you have no idea what it would mean to be living a perfect life in this world.

[UrbanDecay]

You speak about things that are completely subjective, therefore impossible to be perfect. If this man lived a perfect life to one person, or himself, it does not mean he lived a perfect life.

That is the problem with all the Judeo religions, nature is inferior, it is to be conquered and not appreciated. Therefore we destroy and later we stupidly realize we are destroying ourselves. You will never sever your tie with nature. You are part of it down to the molecule and therefore to the molecule you are infinitely flawed. No chance for perfection, you are a biological form prone to just as much disease and harm as anybody else no matter how perfect you fancy yourself. You will have an anus until you die, too, just like any other imperfect person. People will oppose you, abandon you, love you, and maybe even destroy you. So what use is your perfection? Does it stop a cougar from causing a really painful death? Does it bend the ocean and stop you from drowning? No, and it never will. It means nothing, and that is fine. The beauty is that you can search for that, and be free to do so until you are torn apart. The beauty is that other religions can't be meaningless if a person practices them with real fervor, and no self-important jargon you spew can change that. YOu are measured by your deeds, despite your religion and in a society of people that is how it must work. No sovereignty to any purpose that is not justified, true, and tried.

[Caulfield]

UrbanDecay, on 20 November 2011 - 08:35 AM, said:

You speak about things that are completely subjective, therefore impossible to be perfect. If this man lived a perfect life to one person, or himself, it does not mean he lived a perfect life.

He lived an objectively perfect life.

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That is the problem with all the Judeo religions, nature is inferior, it is to be conquered and not appreciated. Therefore we destroy and later we stupidly realize we are destroying ourselves. You will never sever your tie with nature. You are part of it down to the molecule and therefore to the molecule you are infinitely flawed. No chance for perfection, you are a biological form prone to just as much disease and harm as anybody else no matter how perfect you fancy yourself. You will have an anus until you die, too, just like any other imperfect person.

I find it interesting that when talking about morality and actions you continue to bring biology into it. When referencing religion no-one apart from you made any reference to biological processes.
Although I am curious as to why you consider an anus to be biologically imperfect I would rather keep the discussion on religion.

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People will oppose you, abandon you, love you, and maybe even destroy you. So what use is your perfection?

This is the first good question you have asked. I commend you for it. Firstly, it is good for me in that I find a better life for myself. By striving for that which is perfect I apply the lessons learnt on the way to my life bringing peace and joy in all my endeavors. I obtain wisdom about my Dawkins and an objective view of my struggles and how they work in me that I may grow.
Secondly, by my striving I am convicted of and undertake the works to help the poor, the disenfranchised, the widow and the orphan. They benefit com having their physical and emotional needs met through my desire to pour out love and mercy upon them.
Thirdly by living a way foreign to the natural order of the world all may see that I am different, find that it is Christ who works in me and be saved themselves. This is the most important outcome.

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Does it stop a cougar from causing a really painful death? Does it bend the ocean and stop you from drowning? No, and it never will. It means nothing, and that is fine.

You are quite right it wont. Because we are not talking about. biological perfection, which is to come. But it is not meaningless either, as the righteous expression of God's perfect grace and only worthy response it reflects the victory Jesus has over death and the everlasting life He gave unto me, and offers still to all.

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The beauty is that you can search for that, and be free to do so until you are torn apart. The beauty is that other religions can't be meaningless if a person practices them with real fervor, and no self-important jargon you spew can change that. YOu are measured by your deeds, despite your religion and in a society of people that is how it must work. No sovereignty to any purpose that is not justified, true, and tried.

I never said other religion is meaningless. I said that it is useless for it's aim of attaining perfection in this life. A christian religion that does not 'visit the widow and the orphan' and remain 'unspotted from the world' is as useless to God and other people as any non-Christian religion.

Indeed perhaps more useless in that other religion can be shown through Christ to lead to death but the failing Christian religion brings Christ into disrepute.