62 replies to this topic

[Peter Huff]

Coming from the Preterist or partial Preterist position I find that Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse, is truly remarkable and amazing as to how it so intricately ties in with other books of the Bible and the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem in AD 70. In fact, when you take into account who Jesus was primarily addressing in the context and the time references I find it hard to not see how this was all fulfilled within that generation.

Matthew 23:33-24:35

New International Version (NIV)
³³ “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? ³⁴ Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. ³⁵ And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. ³⁶ Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
³⁷ “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ³⁸ Look, your house is left to you desolate. ³⁹ For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’^[a]”
Matthew 24

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times

¹ Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. ² “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
³ As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
⁴ Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. ⁶ You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. ⁷ Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. ⁸ All these are the beginning of birth pains.
⁹ “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. ¹⁰ At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, ¹¹ and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. ¹² Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, ¹³ but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
¹⁵ “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’^[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— ¹⁶ then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ¹⁷ Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. ¹⁸ Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. ¹⁹ How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ²⁰ Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. ²¹ For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
²² “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. ²³ At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. ²⁴ For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. ²⁵ See, I have told you ahead of time.
²⁶ “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ²⁷ For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ²⁸ Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
²⁹ “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’^[c]
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth^[d] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.^{[e] 31} And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
³² “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. ³³ Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it^[f] is near, right at the door. ³⁴ Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. ³⁵ Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Footnotes:

• Matthew 23:39 Psalm 118:26
  
• Matthew 24:15 Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11
  
• Matthew 24:29 Isaiah 13:10; 34:4
  
• Matthew 24:30 Or the tribes of the land
  
• Matthew 24:30 See Daniel 7:13-14.
  
• Matthew 24:33 Or he

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In regards to Jesus' coming in glory (vs 26-31):

Matthew 16:27-28


²⁷ For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
²⁸ “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
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In regards to persecution and suffering of verses 6-14:

Matthew 10

Jesus Sends Out the Twelve
¹ Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.



Matthew 10:5-23

New International Version (NIV)
⁵ These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. ⁶ Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. ⁷ As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ ⁸ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,^[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
⁹ “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— ¹⁰ no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. ¹¹ Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. ¹² As you enter the home, give it your greeting. ¹³ If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. ¹⁴ If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. ¹⁵ Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
¹⁶ “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. ¹⁷ Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. ¹⁸ On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. ¹⁹ But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, ²⁰ for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
²¹ “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. ²² You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. ²³ When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
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In regards to the prophesy of Daniel spoken of in verse 15:


Daniel 9:24-27

²⁴ “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
²⁵ “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. ²⁶ After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. ²⁷ He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

The whole of this prophesy relates to the Jews, the people Jesus came to save and also judge for their continual rejection of the covenant they had made with God. The end of the age that Jesus and Daniel previously referred to is the age of the Old Covenant, because the people, the Jews, had continually broken that covenant. They were about to receive the curses spoken of in Deuteronomy 28-32. Their very centre of covenant life and economy, the temple was about come to an end.
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In regards to the figurative language spoken of in verses 30-31 notice that Jesus comes on the clouds of heaven:


Daniel 7:13-14

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,^[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. ¹⁴ He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Footnotes:

• Daniel 7:13 The Aramaic phrase bar enash means human being. The phrase son of man is retained here because of its use in the New Testament as a title of Jesus, probably based largely on this verse.

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This verse in turn relates to Revelation 5:6 and onwards

⁶ Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits^[a] of God sent out into all the earth. ⁷ He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. ⁸ And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. ⁹ And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
¹⁰ You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
¹¹ Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. ¹² In a loud voice they were saying:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
and honor and glory and praise!”
¹³ Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
¹⁴ The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
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Which in turn relates back to Daniel 12:1-5, 9-13 concerning the scroll and the time of the end:

Daniel 12

The End Times

¹ “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. ² Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. ⁴ But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”


Daniel 12:9-13


⁹ He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. ¹⁰ Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
¹¹ “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. ¹² Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
¹³ “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
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So clearly the time of the end spoken of is related to Daniel's people, the Jews. It signifies the end of the OT way of life. But here is the point I really want to make. None of the books of the New Testament mention the destruction of the temple and city as having happened. This is so what the Jewish life revolved around and was so significant to the people of that time. Throughout the NT you get the imminent time passages that suggest that something tremendous is about to happen in that generation. Surely if any of these books had been written after AD 70 the destruction of the temple would have been mentioned. That is only one line of evidence that speaks to the early writing of the NT.

The Christian as a new creature in the New Covenant is part of this kingdom, an everlasting kingdom.

[happy forever]

Blue and red don't make words divine or we must follow, god peter?

Where are the words of god, peter?

http://www.youtube.c...v=5J-9dn3_hpY#!

[Peter Huff]

happy forever, on 15 November 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

Blue and red don't make words divine or we must follow, god peter?

Where are the words of god, peter?

http://www.youtube.c...v=5J-9dn3_hpY#!

Hi Happy,

Blue and red are used to emphasis and draw attention to particular verses or words.

I listened to your link. James White from the Alpha and Omega Ministries has done an eight part video presentation of You Tube that documents the extremely poor historical scholarship of Yusuf Estes and also his poor understanding of the Trinity. Btw, James White has also a sixty video section on Islam that critiques as well as supplies debates with Muslim scholars.

http://www.youtube.c...8/2/2dRSpJAyrJA
http://www.youtube.c...7D628ED9A0416B3

I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with some of the debates between Muslims and Christians.

Also another criticism I have of these scholars and your posts is that you all seem to pick and choose when the Scriptures are in error and when they are not and it is always when it is convenient to the points that you are making.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind." Numbers 23:19a (see also 1 Samuel 15:29)

The nature of God is different than the nature of man, but in addition to the Son being God He also took upon Himself a human nature - one Person, two natures.

Again from the OT which your man, Yusuf Estes, seems to be accepting in citing Numbers 23:19 comes Isaiah 9:6:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Again, as I have pointed out before, notice that a child is born but the Son is given.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.....And the Word became flesh and made His dwelling with us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking they very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" Philippians 2:5-8

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,...

Happy, you do not understand the Scriptures; that is obvious.

Peter

The Qu’ranic text:

happy forever, on 15 November 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

Blue and red don't make words divine or we must follow, god peter?

Where are the words of god, peter?

http://www.youtube.c...v=5J-9dn3_hpY#!

Hi Happy,

Blue and red are used to emphasis and draw attention to particular verses or words.

I listened to your link. James White from the Alpha and Omega Ministries has done an eight part video presentation of You Tube that documents the extremely poor historical scholarship of Yusuf Estes and also his poor understanding of the Trinity. Btw, James White has also a sixty video section on Islam that critiques as well as supplies debates with Muslim scholars.

http://www.youtube.c...8/2/2dRSpJAyrJA
http://www.youtube.c...7D628ED9A0416B3

I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with some of the debates between Muslims and Christians.

Also another criticism I have of these scholars and your posts is that you all seem to pick and choose when the Scriptures are in error and when they are not and it is always when it is convenient to the points that you are making.

"God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind." Numbers 23:19a (see also 1 Samuel 15:29)

The nature of God is different than the nature of man, but in addition to the Son being God He also took upon Himself a human nature - one Person, two natures.

Again from the OT which your man, Yusuf Estes, seems to be accepting in citing Numbers 23:19 comes Isaiah 9:6:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a Son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Again, as I have pointed out before, notice that a child is born but the Son is given.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.....And the Word became flesh and made His dwelling with us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking they very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!" Philippians 2:5-8

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,...

Happy, you do not understand the Scriptures; that is obvious.

Peter

Edited by Peter Huff, 20 November 2011 - 01:07 AM.

[quest2158]

I look at the bible as a type of handbook but that doesent mean that i read the whole thing all at once it means that I look at bits and pieces guadualy and process the information to get a result based on the new information and the information that I aready have.

now this would be a reason why I would have possibly wrong information also to concider the translation of bible you or me happen to have unless you use online sources then you get the original version's translation along with other translations messing up your results to an extent also the language you read it in can also affect results.

but that also means that I possibly would not understand the scriptures at all but stupidly asume that I do.

even though that also applys to you but you seem more enthusiastic about this suggesting that you have studied the scriptures in one way or another raising the possibility of you being right.

how you talk also suggests that you have ether studyed exsecively or read alot on the subject and/or watched alot on the subject suggested by your confidence,sturdiness,and belief in what you say.

then again you could be just geting this information as you go.

a comon responce to something like this is simply "NO" witch would mean you just relay information or a different possibility I did not think of.




also try combining

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance

[quest2158]

oh I for got to include that the last part was to show most people how to make sence of the bible a little easyer by taking certain texts puting them next together and get statements that make more sence to the average person that does not read the bible but flips through it geting limited information

like me!!!

but the statements have to be related or it most likely wont work

[Peter Huff]

quest2158, on 20 November 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

I look at the bible as a type of handbook but that doesent mean that i read the whole thing all at once it means that I look at bits and pieces guadualy and process the information to get a result based on the new information and the information that I aready have.

now this would be a reason why I would have possibly wrong information also to concider the translation of bible you or me happen to have unless you use online sources then you get the original version's translation along with other translations messing up your results to an extent also the language you read it in can also affect results.

but that also means that I possibly would not understand the scriptures at all but stupidly asume that I do.

even though that also applys to you but you seem more enthusiastic about this suggesting that you have studied the scriptures in one way or another raising the possibility of you being right.

how you talk also suggests that you have ether studyed exsecively or read alot on the subject and/or watched alot on the subject suggested by your confidence,sturdiness,and belief in what you say.

then again you could be just geting this information as you go.

a comon responce to something like this is simply "NO" witch would mean you just relay information or a different possibility I did not think of.




also try combining

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance

Hi Quest,

Thanks for your reply. The thing about translations into different languages is that these different languages are all translated from the original Koine Greek. It is not like you are translating from Greek to German to Dutch to English were the terms get more and more confused from language to language. It is from the original Greek to English or from the Greek to Dutch or from the Greek to German. Another point is that language in context carries with it specific meaning and when we inquire into the context if we don't get the Author's meaning then we have missed what He (in the case of God) intended for us to understand. I say that to say this; there is a correct way of handling the truth of Scripture, just like there is a correct way of interpreting what I am saying to you. Scripture interprets Scripture, not the reader putting their own spin on it. If you are drawing out your own meanings rather than understanding the Author's meaning then you have missed what He has actually said.

I'm not new to the Scriptures. I have been studying them for almost thirty years in my relationship with Jesus Christ. I have struggled with understanding many issues, but God has brought victories in correctly understanding some of the issues and doctrines of the Christian life. I could relate to you some of these issues, and explain how God brought about a correct understanding, but I don't know if you would be interested. Let me give you one example. I struggled with the issue of whether or not a true believer could loses their salvation because someone who claimed to be a 'Word of Faith' believer said it was possible to take yourself out of God's hand after He had saved you. I struggled with this issue for almost two years, praying about it constantly, debating with my friend. That can be quite exhausting. One day I sat down and started reading through the New Testament, book by book, and God confirmed in my mind, over and over again, that if He has saved a person then that person can never be unsaved, or lost, or walk away from Jesus. Jesus did not die to make salvation possible. He died to save a people from their sins. It is all the work of God and since it is the work of God it is not based on what you can do, but on what He has already done for you. If the Almighty saves you then you are truly His.

Quote

a comon responce to something like this is simply "NO" witch would mean you just relay information or a different possibility I did not think of. -Quest

Feel free to do so and we can discuss as to whether or not it seems logical or justifiable in doing so. If I am proven wrong then I will humbly admit to being so. I take God's word as truth.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness..." 2 Timothy 3:16

Quote

Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance -Quest

First question - Who is the 'you' referring to in the context of the passage?
Second question - The end of what?
Third question - Which generation is Jesus referring to?
Fourth question - Based on the use of the term 'this generation', which is used 37 times in the New Testament, can you point out which example(s), if any, refer to a generation other than the one that Jesus is living among and why you feel this is the correct interpretation of the particular verse(s) that you cite, if any?

Thanks for engaging,
Peter

[Peter Huff]

happy forever, on 15 November 2011 - 02:40 AM, said:

Where are the words of god, peter? http://www.youtube.c...v=5J-9dn3_hpY#!

The words of God, Happy, are in the Bible.

[quest2158]

ok well the you is the subject who is mathew(unless i was informed incorectly)

till the end is when they die and the end of days would be the end of the world so to speak

he was probably refering to all generations because the time he said this generation will certainly not pass away he was only talking to his diciples and/or is was just writen down that way and/or it was only percived that way(i am only refering to the thing i copyed and pasted)


not pass away (this means that they shall not "pass on" as people say)

also one word in one language may have 2 or more meanings in another making 2 or more posibilitys to translate it in to and people talked different in different time peirods witch could have meant that a word or two could have lost its original meaning

[Peter Huff]

Hi again Quest,

Quote

1) ok well the you is the subject who is mathew(unless i was informed incorectly)

2) till the end is when they die and the end of days would be the end of the world so to speak

3) he was probably refering to all generations because the time he said this generation will certainly not pass away he was only talking to his diciples and/or is was just writen down that way and/or it was only percived that way(i am only refering to the thing i copyed and pasted)


4) not pass away (this means that they shall not "pass on" as people say)

also one word in one language may have 2 or more meanings in another making 2 or more posibilitys to translate it in to and people talked different in different time peirods witch could have meant that a word or two could have lost its original meaning -Quest

1) During the time the gospels were written they did not have chapter divisions. When you follow the course of the conversation in what is now chapter 23 Jesus is criticizing the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. He is pronouncing judgment on them. He says, over and over again:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! (See Matthew 23:13, 23, 25, 27, 29)

Then He says to them:

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers [His disciples as prophets and teachers fit this bill judging from other Scriptural verses]. Some of them you [the Pharisees and teachers of the law] will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town [see Matthew 10:18-19 in regards to this persecution and flogging which speaks of the disciples]. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. [Then Jesus pronounces a curse/judgment not only on the teachers and Pharisees, but includes those in Jerusalem also]
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house [i.e., the temple and city] is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.'
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when His disciples came up to Him to call His attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' [i.e., the temple and its grounds, possibly the city too] He asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another, everyone will be thrown down.'
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. 'Tell us,' they said, 'when will this happen, and what will be the sign of {b]Your coming[/b] and of the end of the age?'"

So Quest, you see Jesus pronouncing judgment on the teachers of the law, the prophets and those hardnosed people of Jerusalem who killed and stoned all the prophets and messengers that God ever sent to His people. He tells them that their house, their home, and their place they worship, their lifestyle will be left to them desolate, and He says that all this will happen on this very generation that He is addressing because of their hardheartedness. Then the disciples come to Him privately and asked Him when the stones will be thrown down [i.e., 'when will this happen'] and what will be the signs of His coming in judgment and with salvation for those waiting for Him, and what will be the end of the 'age'? Then Jesus starts answering the disciples multi-faceted question with [i]"Watch out that no one deceives you....and sums up the discourse with, [i]"I tell you[/]b] the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away [i.e., die] until [b]all these things [that He has just mentioned to them] have happened." Matthew 24:4 and 34.

Edited by Peter Huff, 23 November 2011 - 02:16 AM.

[Peter Huff]

Part 2

2) If you know what the Greek word Jesus uses in reference to the end, it is not the word for the end of the world (kosmos), but age (aion). He is not referring to the end of world history, or world - period, but to the end of the Jewish age or the Old Covenant age. That will perish with the destruction of the temple, for the Jews will not have a place to sacrifice and make atonement for their sins any more.

We know this is what it refers to because all throughout the New Testament there is an imminent expectancy that both judgment and rescue/salvation are coming upon this very people in this very generation that Jesus came for (see John 1:11 with Matthew 1:23 to get the contrast between the Jewish believers and unbelievers, judgment and salvation).

"These things happened to them as examples for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come." 1 Corinthians 10:11

Again, you would have to read the context of the Corinthian passage to see the audience the apostle Paul is addressing.

Or take a look at the passage in the book of Hebrews in which the earthly temple is being compared to the heavenly one or the Old Covenant is being compared to the New Covenant.

"By calling this covenant 'new,' He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13

With the temple gone there would be no place left for sacrifices because Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient and better than any animal sacrifice.

"Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in heaven should be purified with these, but the heavenly things with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy place made with hands [see the Old Testament priesthood and sacrificial system], which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another [i.e., bulls and goats] - He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." Hebrews 9:23-26

"The end of all things is near....Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trials you are suffering." 1 Peter 4:7, 12

"I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:20

"He who endures to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22; 24:13

If that is not enough to convince you then there are numerous passages that refer to "the last days" or "the day" or "that day" or "the Day of the Lord" or The Day of Wrath", "the Day of Judgement" that when taken in context, you see who is being referred to.

For instance, "Dear children, this isthe last hour; and as you have heard [past tense] that the anti-christ is coming, even now [present tense] many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They [the anti-christs] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us..."[/i] 1 John 2:18-19a

Part 3

3) In order to be convincing that "this generation" refers to all generations or any generation you, Quest, would have to convince me that in context this is what Jesus means and you would have to demonstrate that the other references to "this generation" do not apply to those living at the time of Jesus, but to future generations. The very words “this generation”, if not figurative language, speak of a current generation (genea) of people being addressed, and no longer than the life span of a generation, which incidentally, in the Bible, is defined to about forty years.

R.C Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus documents the use of 'this generation to mean the current generation whereever it is used.

As mentioned earlier, in Matthew 23:36, this generation is referring to specific people. In Matthew 11:16, Jesus is again addressing the crowd and says, "To what can I compare this generation to?" This is the last existing generation of Israel before they are dispersed.

"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah...The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now One greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now One greater than Solomon is here."[/i] Matthew 12:38-42

"Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world....Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all." Luke 11:50-51

"But first He [Jesus, the Son of Man] must suffer many things and be rejected by [b]this generation."

So of the 38 times the term 'this generation' is used can you, Quest, demonstrate that it refers in context to anything other than the generation then living?

[quest2158]

if he said this generation as in the generation of mankind in some cases and that generation spicificly in others and the age as the life of a person in some cases or existanse of something in others and the end of days would be the end of someones rule and in to anothers better rule

im just wondering if he was trying to say something and couldent find the right words for it in that language but said it any way the best way he could makeing it so their were some hidden meanings unintentualy

[Peter Huff]

quest2158, on 23 November 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

if he said this generation as in the generation of mankind in some cases and that generation spicificly in others and the age as the life of a person in some cases or existanse of something in others and the end of days would be the end of someones rule and in to anothers better rule im just wondering if he was trying to say something and couldent find the right words for it in that language but said it any way the best way he could makeing it so their were some hidden meanings unintentualy

Hi Quest,

Hopefully I'm understanding what you are saying here?

There are various problems with that view of the word generation. The least of which is how the word fits into the context of each of the passages in which it is employeed. The Greek word used for generation is genea in each of these passages and it is used of contemporaries of Jesus in most of the 38 passages that use the word. It can also mean family, kind, race, stock or breed. If Jesus wanted to express the word for race he could have expressed it better with the Greek word genos used in 1 Peter 2:9. Before the word generation in all these 38 references comes the word 'this' not 'that.'

God is perfectly capable of expressing what He means. As I said before, prophesy so intricately ties together that it does not contradict itself when properly interpreted.

Peter

[quest2158]

then how can someone properly interpret it?

well if part of god became human he also became a imperfect being and in that state couldent he make some mistakes that were very minor that were exprest in the wording of him when he talked

also if their word for generation also means those thing why didint they translate is in to those words and when he says "this" and not "that" sugests that he was talking to the people he was refeing to or he was in or surrounded by who or what he was refering to

[Peter Huff]

Hi Quest,

Quote

also if their word for generation also means those thing why didint they translate is in to those words and when he says "this" and not "that" sugests that he was talking to the people he was refeing to or he was in or surrounded by who or what he was refering to -Quest

Because the word generation, meaning those alive at that current time, better fits into the context. It is the logical use of the word in the context. It is the most probable translation of genea. If I said to you, 'My grass is green and needs cutting' as opposed to 'I am green with envy' you would know I am speaking literally in the first instance and figuratively in the second because the context determines how the use of the word green is used. The same it true of the word genea. Jesus is speaking to His contemporaries, telling them what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. He keeps using the pronouns 'you' and 'we' in relation to them and to the question they have asked Him. And in speaking to them He says, "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, even at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

We know that the race did not pass away, yet 1.1 million Jews were killed during the 3 1/2 year siege of Jerusalem in AD70. The Jewish people still exist today but the Old Covenant economy of temple worship and sacrifice passed away in AD 70, that is in the course of one generation, the same generation that witnessed His crucifixion. And we know what is the span of a generation by other passages of Scripture. Israel of the Old Testament did not enter the Promised Land until an entire generation (40 years) had passed away, because of their unbelief and lack of trust in God. The author of Hebrews, for one, alludes to this point:

"So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried Me and for forty years saw what I did. That is why I was angry with that generation" Hebrews 3:7-10

Quote

then how can someone properly interpret it? -Quest

How do you properly interpret what I say? You try to understand the meaning conveyed in my words, and if I have expressed myself coherently enough then you get my intended meaning. The same is true in understanding God. You have to correctly understand what He is saying, what His words mean. When He uses phrases like shortly, quickly, the time is near, these are the last days, the time has come, etc., does that mean 2000 plus years down the road?

Quote

well if part of god became human he also became a imperfect being and in that state couldent he make some mistakes that were very minor that were exprest in the wording of him when he talked -Quest

That is not what the Bible conveys; that is something that you are reading into the text that it does not say. It says that Jesus was sinless, a lamb without spot or blemish, that He always did His Father's will. He is the only perfect man that has ever lived. What mistakes are you referring to. Please give me book and verse numbers. There are none.

Edited by Peter Huff, 25 November 2011 - 01:05 PM.

[Alexander Angellove]

I just have to ask one thing to Peter. More or less off-topic, but I just have to, considering he's very much into this whole thing. Peter, my dear, what makes you so sure that you're not just engaging in false propaganda? You speak of the god God and His son Jesus like you're firmly convinced that they are real and Christianity is the one true religion. There are dozens of Jesus-figures that appear all throughout the world, in many a religion. All spawn of the Divine, all born from a virgin mother, all dead and ressurected. Why are you so keen on naming these entities and what makes you so sure that what's written in the Bible is not something chosen specifically by the Church (which is actually a known fact that took place at the Great Schism) to favor itself regarding believers? Don't you think that you're actually quite narrow-minded NOT to try and interpret the message (which is quite simple: peace, love, common sense), but support the exact wording (which is archaic, extreme and doesn't fit at all in today's society)?

[MicroVaxiinate]

Theres no one to talk to.

[Peter Huff]

MicroVaxiinate, on 02 December 2011 - 01:31 AM, said:

Theres no one to talk to.

Hi Alexander and Micro,
I'll be back next week and look forward to engaging your world-view and answering your questions.

Micro, what do you want to talk about?

Edited by Peter Huff, 02 December 2011 - 01:38 AM.

[Peter Huff]

Alexander Angellove, on 30 November 2011 - 02:33 PM, said:

I just have to ask one thing to Peter. More or less off-topic, but I just have to, considering he's very much into this whole thing. Peter, my dear, 1) what makes you so sure that you're not just engaging in false propaganda? 2) You speak of the god God and His son Jesus like you're firmly convinced that they are real and Christianity is the one true religion. 3) There are dozens of Jesus-figures that appear all throughout the world, in many a religion. 4) All spawn of the Divine, all born from a virgin mother, all dead and ressurected. 5) Why are you so keen on naming these entities and what makes you so sure that what's written in the Bible is not something chosen specifically by the Church (which is actually a known fact that took place at the Great Schism) to favor itself regarding believers? 6) Don't you think that you're actually quite narrow-minded NOT to try and interpret the message (7) which is quite simple: peace, love, common sense), 8) but support the exact wording (which is archaic, extreme and doesn't fit at all in today's society)?

Hi Alexander,

You have said a lot in that paragraph so I have broken it down into points to reply to your critique.

1) Because God has given many extraordinary and cumulative lines of proof as not only to His existence, but also to the way things are (reality) that correspond to what the Bible says and do not correspond to other religious beliefs. As Christians we are not stuck with just one line of defending truth and I can appeal to the Bible and the God of the Bible as necessary in order to know what is true.

2) Yes, I do. The difference between knowing about God and knowing God is Jesus Christ.

Logically all religions cannot be true because they all disagree on vital points. You can't have a God who is personal and not personal at the same time and in the same relationship, nor can you have Jesus as the only way to God and also at the same time Jesus as one of many ways to God. Either the claims the Bible makes are true or Christianity is a religion to be rejected. I do not believe there are any good reasons to reject the Bible, it is only our world-view bias and prejudice that get in the way, or as the Bible says,

"The man without the Spirit [the 'natural' man] does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

Basically what that means is that you refuse to look at things through God's eyes, nor can you do so because your basic world-view foundation will not let you.

"The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8

You are committed to a natural framework that does not allow you to submit to God because you prefer to be in control, to be the final authority, if you are not born again/born of God's Spirit and given a new nature that is no longer hostile to Him.

3) Yes, there are, and the Bible spoke of some of these in context to the first century Christians so that they would not be deceived. If you know the real McCoy - the true Jesus - you will be able to tell the difference.

4) The question is who came first and how well can these other resurrection and virgin accounts be confirmed and is the historical evidence for them before or after the gospel and biblical accounts? I can give you some outstanding biblical proof that either these accounts are after the fact or the wording in the stones and historical data are very vague in their inferences. If you are interested here is one link:

http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm
http://www.tektonics...shattering.html
http://www.tektonics.org/TK-J.html

5) You will have to present more of your evidence on the 'Great Schism' so I can check out your sources. I would conjecture that they are either nineteenth century German higher critics or members of the Jesus Seminar and those affiliated with that particular brand of philosophy.

6) Not only do I think that I am narrow minded, but I also think that you are. More to the point is that truth is narrow in scope. Physically speaking, two objects plus two objects are four objects. That is narrow.

7) You do not understand the Bible if all you see from its writings is 'peace, love and common sense.' You do not see the theme throughout the Bible of man's wilful disobedience to God's laws and the necessity of God in applying the appropriate justice. God would not be either loving or righteous, holy and pure if He allowed sinful actions to go unpunished. Now if you think you can meet God's righteous requirements through your own merit and earn your good understanding, then you don't understand who God is.

8) I am not a literalist in the sense that I woodenly interpret all Scripture in a strictly literal way. I understand that the passages and context determines the meaning, whether literal or figurative, just like it does in everyday language use. You seem to think that God's word is not applicable to you today.

Peter

PS. I started with prophesy because I don't think you can refute the exactness of God's word in predicting what would come to past. You have not made any comments related to the subject at hand - biblical prophesy as truth.

[Alexander Angellove]

Wow, I had more open-minded discussions with the local priests, but you, sir, are a whole new species. Using the Bible to defend the Bible is like telling me God is God... In fact, you did both with absoutely no personal contemplation, save maybe recalling certain passages in the scriptures.Let's go in detail, shall we? I know it's futile to try and reason with you, but what the hell? I'm bored anyway.

1) I asked you how do you know that the magnificient all-powerful entity up there is called God. As in his NAME. Why not Allah or Buddha or George? You tell me that God has given proof that He is God because the Bible is right and other holy books are not, because there are things that correspond to reality. Now! Even if that was a viable answer for my question, which is NOT, I can assure you that there are also things in the Bible that do not fit with reality, just as there are things in the Coran (just as example) that do fit. All holy books were written by men, all inspired and designed from and for their author's time and society. As time passed, there were many other nutjobs like yourself who thought "WOW! Look, this thing happened just like it says here!". Guess what? There's this expression: "history repeating". Can you figure out by yourself what it refers to? No, wait, let me help you: at some point in the next 24 hours, in New York, a guy with dark hair and blue eyes, will marry a woman! I must be a prophet because it's likely to happen again after that and after that and after that!

2) I never said that Christianity is NOT the true religion, nor that another religion is. I asked you why do YOU think it's the right way to go. You actually responded with an attack to my beliefs which you don't even know. Classic! You can rest assured that I do believe in God. Or A god, to be exact. It may or may not be the Christian god, but that is not for me to assume, nor is it for anyone humble and faithful enough to understand that entity's magnitude. Any idiot should understand the main idea of ALL holy books, which is that their god is a gentle, kind, man-loving one, yet you have the audacity to claim that I don't or can't. Listen here, Peter, and listen well: whatever god may be out there, it is one that understands the NATURE of man, that which you brought up. He understands the simple mind of man and doesn't love only the ones the brightest of us. In fact, in your precious Bible, it says quite clearly that the meak will are welcome in His Kingdom. Claiming that His plan is so complicated and believing that such a benevolent spirit needs to threaten with the damnation of Hell to be loved and worshipped, is pure imbecility! I am not hostile to God or Allah or any form of belief, but I do have control over my own mind which is another thing humans were blessed with by Him: free will. If He had given me that, I doubt He will sit on a cloud and pull my strings as I go along. You speak of contradictions and things that don't fit - then what the hell do you call this difference between what you preach and what is in the Bible?

3 & 4) No, you're wrong. I'm not talking of some vague warning meant to keep Christians in line! I'm not talking about that fucking propaganda meant to enslave the mind and spirit by threatening with the "danger" of false prophets or Messiahs! I'm bringing up Jesus figures that popped up in completely different religions, half way across the world from Jerusalem, hundreds of years before Jesus was even theoretically born. Same pattern: born from a virgin, son of god, performs miracles, dies and ressurects after 3 days! Same damn pattern. What makes them less real? Oh, yeah! They're not the sons of YOUR God!

5) I need not present you any evidence, on the sole basis that the Book was written by men. Yet, I will indulge you with one argument: other scriptures were found and/or revealed recently. Such gospels as the one by Thomas. Why aren't these included in the Bible? Oh yeah! Because they disagree with what the Church wants and needs. Your vaunted Bible is a collection of texts that are meant to inspire fear of God and the Church, meant to have man above woman and twisted, especially during the Inquisition rule, to hold evolution back. How many innocents have died because of Crusades and witchcraft accusations? For common sense's sake, Galileo was burned at stake for claiming that the world is round! "Believe and do not question!", right? That's exactly what YOU are doing. Such disgusting attitude should not be linked to one who claims to be a Christian when Jesus NEVER encouraged us to be dumb and ignorant!

6) Truth as well as beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Your truth is narrow and is a result of preaching other people's truths, whereas my own comes from keeping my view open to all and any information. But most of all, comes from pondering matters and not gulping down info just because other people claim it's true.

7) "Now if you think you can meet God's righteous requirements through your own merit and earn your good understanding, then you don't understand who God is.". That is FANTASTIC! And you do understand who God is! You're so arrogant to claim such a thing? It blows my mind. If God has chosen people like you to spread His word then I will surely and by my own accord switch lanes and drive straight to Hell! Wow, I don't even know how to grasp the concept that drives you to believe such idiocies. I said it earlier: God wants us to be good people and the Bible, written by men, was designed to keep people good. In a barbaric society, the laws of men would not suffice to ensure the morality of men. So what do we do? We write an instruction book on how one should be and have "holy" men preach it to the STUPID masses (who couldn't read!). Which is another argument that God does not love only "geniuses" such as yourself, but even the uneducated ones. The Bible is LOVE, as God is LOVE. You, in return, are keen on clinging to sin and punishment. You are the one who doesn't understand the most basic thing about God!

And 8), pointing ou back to the parts where I said that the Bible was written by men.

Conclussion: you're a spiteful, narrow-minded, aggressive fool who doesn't even understand what he's preaching and is so far from the word of Jesus that it's actually funny. I'm done with you as much as God is. The path was quite simple and clear, but you chose to make it complicated and hard. My questions were a means to know whether I should or shouldn't consider your posts. You're not. There! Does that address your dilemma about how my posts are related to the "Biblical Prophecy As Truth"? Have a good life.

[Peter Huff]

Hi Alexander,

I see you chewed your way around my post without even addressing the points I made. I was hoping for more than belligerence, arrogance, mean-spirited condescension.

There is a circularity in most arguments when they are questioned deeply enough and no one comes to an argument without a bias that has thought about any issue long and hard, so in a reply there are usually nuggets of information that divulge a person’s world-view. You did not come with an open mind, or to debate and inquire, but with other motives, and that was to unload your personal distaste and dislike for anything Christian and anything that does not meet your lofty, relativistic, pluralistic, and postmodern, man as the measure of all things, evolutionary, eastern spiritual mindset.

So I will address your first three points, which you did not address many of my points but went into a tirade of its own.

Here is my first point:

Quote

1) Because God has given many extraordinary and cumulative lines of proof as not only to His existence, but also to the way things are (reality) that correspond to what the Bible says and do not correspond to other religious beliefs. As Christians we are not stuck with just one line of defending truth and I can appeal to the Bible and the God of the Bible as necessary in order to know what is true. -Me

Quote

1) I asked you how do you know that the magnificient all-powerful entity up there is called God. As in his NAME. Why not Allah or Buddha or George? You tell me that God has given proof that He is God because the Bible is right and other holy books are not, because there are things that correspond to reality. Now! Even if that was a viable answer for my question, which is NOT, I can assure you that there are also things in the Bible that do not fit with reality, just as there are things in the Coran (just as example) that do fit. All holy books were written by men, all inspired and designed from and for their author's time and society. As time passed, there were many other nutjobs like yourself who thought "WOW! Look, this thing happened just like it says here!". Guess what? There's this expression: "history repeating". Can you figure out by yourself what it refers to? No, wait, let me help you: at some point in the next 24 hours, in New York, a guy with dark hair and blue eyes, will marry a woman! I must be a prophet because it's likely to happen again after that and after that and after that! -Alexander

I know of Him through His creation, through His revelation, the Bible, and I know Him intimately or relationally though His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the only way you can truly know God, not just about Him.

When I said that the God of the Bible had given many cumulative proofs, you never inquired into what they were, you just went right to your agenda and your ad hominem attacks. Is that what you call open minded discussion?

God is a word we use to describe a deity. The God of the Bible has revealed Himself by many names that describe His nature and being, but Yahweh, the Great I am, is who He is. Why not Allah or Buddha or George? Because that is not who God is. The Allah of the Qur’an is a god that says contradictory things and makes contradictory claims to the revelation of the Bible. The teachings of Buddha do likewise. Logically two different things that make such claims both cannot be true and valid at the same time and in the same manner. I mentioned that point to you before. A cannot be A and non-A at the same time and in the same relationship or, A cannot be both A and not A. God cannot be both personal and impersonal at the same time and in the same relationship. He is either a personal being or He is not. He can`t be both at the same time and in the same relationship (i.e., God).

In the same manner, either the Bible is true in its statements and claims or it is false. It can't be both true and false, especially when it claims over and over again to be true - the very word of God, over and over again throughout Scripture.

As for your comment that there are things in the Bible that do not fit reality, whose reality - yours. What makes you think that everything you know is as it actually is? You make these cavalier statements throughout your post. I thought you may challenge me, but all you have done is state your opinion. You have not provided any historical facts or given any examples from the Bible that we could discuss.

The Bible claims relevance today as well as during the centuries in which it was written and to that specific people that God chose to make Himself known to the world by. You are looking at this wholly from a natural approach. By His very nature God is a supernatural being. He transcends nature, He created nature.

Lastly, you reference to predicting the future by your shoddy example does not compare in any way to the biblical prophesies. They were extremely specific, so amazingly so that they put every other so-called revelation to shame. You never addressed any of my claims, nor did you even look at the links I sent you. How open minded is that.

In your second point I'm only going to address a few of your logical inconsistencies and glaring errors. I have my doubts that you have even read the Bible.

Edited by Peter Huff, 07 December 2011 - 11:20 AM.