Well, first off I need to say that with this topic, I don't have any definite direction to head into. But I haven't made a topic here for a bit, and this is more a suggestion then anything else, but I'm hoping we can issue some discussion from this.

So say what you want, because this will harbour opinions mostly, as I'm offering some kind of hum..scientific suggestion for a mythical ability from a mythical being.
(No goddamn claims.)

So here it is, I got this from a book series called Necroscope. It's about how a vampire, the traditional mythical vampire anyways, can transform itself into several animals.
Well, I believe a vampire would have strong psychic abilities, judging by the popular return of it charming the people around it, and more or less using its mind for many purposes.
So, what if a vampire really can't change itself into an animal? I thought maybe, as a way for the vampire to travel around unnoticed, it uses mass hypnotism on anyone in its path, making them believe the vampire's an animal. But he wouldn't be, he's putting this image in the minds of people as he travels by. So they won't pay attention to the wolf running in the woods, the bat fluttering around or the mist over the water. And if people DID pay attention, well you don't bug wolves or bats, and what are you gonna do to mist? (Even thought that's really not what's there.)
It could be a vampire's defence mechanism, something I found really clever.
(Praises go to Brian Lumley! :D )

The vampire is often known as the king of deception, and I've often heard he can outwit even Satan Himself. Deception comes in many forms, so I thought some in the way of protection for the vampire would be just as natural as deception used on a vamp's behalf to lure a victim. It almost goes hand in hand, as if deception and ruse is a vampire's main subject of survival.

Now, I don't know much about actual hypnotism, or if even mass hypnotism is possible against people. (I've heard it can be done to stupid animals like cows and chickens, although I digress.)

So, while I have no real aim as for discussion, start by telling me what you think of this suggestion. Would it make sense?

Actually, it has one clear flaw: hypnotism doesn't really work like that...

It works in shows and such, because you really can only hypnotize someone who *allows* him- or herself te be hypnotized. It's as simple as that. If you don't want to be hypnotized, it's not going to have any effect on you.

So mass hypnotism, with people all thinking exactly the same is a definite no-go. Now if you'd rework your angle to something like *mass-hysteria* on the other hand...

Necroscope by Brian Lumley is an amazing book, about which we'll have to start a thread in Literature, but the idea behind that one is the vampire [Ferenczy], who says he is the basis for dracula, drew a young offspring of gypsy descent whom he was connected with [Dragosani] to his crypt to do his bidding, not so much by hypnosis but connection, Ferenczy spoke to him through the wind and then in his own mind.
Hypnosis as it has already been said can only work on a willing victim. You would have to break down those people you wished to hypnotise in a cult like fashion.... that would be fun... but I got a little lost as to the topic of this thread, please reiterate.

Look, I read the book, and you proving to me that you've grasped the storyline really has nothing to do with this topic.
If you remember, on one of their many discussion, the suggestion presented here is what the vampire told Dragossani. When Dragossani asked him about some of the most popular vampire beliefs (turning into animals) this is how he said he did it.

And no, someone can't be hypnotised if not willing, but let's keep two things in mind;
First off a vampire can charm people at will, weather they want to or not. More often then not, victims in stories always mention a tinge of fear or uneasiness about the tall mysterious stranger, but can't find it in themselves to get away. It's not hypnotism, but close. So if a vampire's power is that strong, I don't see why he couldn't make people see what he wants them to. Maybe mass hypnotism works differently then if done on an indivivual. How do we know if mass hypnotism doesn,t exist in the first place?
I'd also like to mention that when I mean hypnotism, I'm not exactly talking about swinging around a clock going; ''You will see me as an aaaaaaaanimaaaal...''
Granted, if someone has a better word, I'd like to hear it.

And second,this is fictional, so what ''works in shows'' as was stated, easilly applies here, right?
And I don't see how ''mass hysteria'' would work. How would everyone concentrate on one image?

Sometimes I am shocked by how wrong people can be.

This French accent you speak of is immaterial, as if the transformation is complete, it should never be heard. While monotrimmular herpes is very rare there are a few other interesting side effects. Some of these include the spontaneous creation of oncoming wind, and the sudden construction of transparent boundaries around the transformed boundaries. There are other interesting side effects, but these are two of the most common. Also, certain schools of thought say that the wind must resemble a great hurricane, while others say it should be more of a light, playful breeze. It is unlikely that there will ever be a compromise between the two.

Skull, you fool!

Pardon me while I ask with that has to do with this?

Hm. I'm thinking that mass hypnotism CAN be done...Although I would think that the subject matter would have much to do with it. I say it can be done because of the whole Jim Jones affair in South America (? don't remember if that's the right place).

Jim Jones did not hypnotise his followers.

I think I know what your talking about here. Maybe Hypnosis was the wrong word er whatever but the idea is that a vampire can affect the conciousness of other people in masse. I know from personal experience that if I don't want to be seen I wont be seen. I think that if a vampire had some kinda hightened ability like this, they wouldn't make themselves appear as animals to other people they would simply fade themselves out of others perception. I believe this is totaly possible and more realistic than the whole animal thing.

nice idea for a thread though

no, he didn't hypnotize, per se, but I guess I meant more of what Noise is saying...affecting the consciousness.

Ever stop to think that it's because you're an unpopular wallflower?

Magic does not exist. It is not real. Psychic energy does not exist. It is not real. Vampires do not exist. They are not real.

I suppose mass hysteria might work as a supposition. Mass faintings of Japanese and African school children for example or the Fatima BVM sighting. The first seem to have no discernable reason for happening and in the second people probably saw a natrual phenomenon but because of the fever pitch tthey had built themselves up to, they saw what they believed should be there.

Not sure if it would fit or not to be honest but you might be able to crow-bar vampre transformations in there somewhere! :D

The wallflower thing, that's a little harsh, don't you think?

And yes, psychic energy DOES exist. I've experienced it on several levels myself. I've seen ghosts. I've witnessed a spoon balanced at a 45 degree angle on a staircase bannister. I've watched a whole host of things move that shouldn't. I've watched the tv change channels without input from the remote, the buttons on the tv, or anything else. I've watched the streetlights go out one by one over a two-mile stretch as my ex and I drove by them, on a weekly basis, and come back on after we'd passed. I've heard doors and cupboards open and slam closed at all hours of the day and night when there was no one in the house but me. I've been touched on the shoulder, back and side when there was no one there. I've watched the tv and radio turn on without being plugged in and with no batteries. I've smelled a certain blend of tobacco and known instantly that something was wrong. I've watched the lights flicker on and off and known the same thing, made a phone call and discovered something was indeed terribly wrong. The list goes on and on, and it's funny, most of this stuff stopped after I left my ex. Although it made sense to me, because he was the one with the energy hovering around him.

And no, I don't do drugs, and I am a perfectly sane, 'normal' well-adjusted, intelligent human being.

You live in an old house, and your boyfriend's nickname was "Original Prankster"?

Ok, I am educated in the field of hypnosis.
It is true, as I understand, that you must want to be hypnotised, in a since.
But, it is also proven, you can be hypnotised without knowing it.
Also, you enter trances without choosing to, it has happend to myself.
Ever go to a fast food restraunt, they ask(suggestion) very sharpe quickly" Want fries with that?", "Want the large?". "want some extra crap?"...if you say "yes!" they'll continue suggesting things. You may find yourself saying "yes" to things you don't really want, things you know you don't want. Merely because it was suggested. This is, I think, call "exclamitory hypnosis"(excuse the dyslexia)?

Now, in order to hypnotise, communication through suggestions must be availible. If the vampire could somehow suggest things telepathically, then sure, he could hypnotise someone.
Mass hypnosis, it does work, it depends on the group of individuals. Have you ever seen stage show hypnosis? THere are certian tests they perform to find people who are more easily hypnotised with their induction.
Test one"I need volenteers, raise your hands", "I need some people to come up on stage", "raise your hands","raise your hands if you want to volenteer...".

Anyway, stage show hypnosis(mass hypnosis) works just as direct hypnosis does.

Oh thou non-believer! Care to come to New Orleans and find out for yourself? and no, it wasn't an old house, in fact, I lived in about five different houses with him, one of them brand new.

Frankly, I like the idea of a of influence so powerful that it causes you to see what you want to see. a la Bram Stoker's Dracula: "No!! Do not see me!!!" etc.

Mass Hypnotism...er, no, that's not the word, but I get you. I was under the impression that mass hypnotism is spread from one person to another rather than via a central source - but I haven't really read up on it so you can disregard what I just said.

Something niggling in my brain about this topic - would this have any connection with, ah what's it called - The Glamour? I've read about that somewhere and it sounds similar, though I may be way off. Something that takes the shape of your fear, or something.

How about the psychology of authority figures? It has been proven numerous times that you can get people do something they don't want to do, because of the actions of someone they percieve as a figure of authority. For example: Person A gives person B electrical shocks of 450 volt, because a pointdexter-type of guy tells him it's okay to do so.

I also recall something about vocal suggestions, where they played a tape in a mall for a while, and they get everybody suddenly to raise their hand, much to their surprise. And people are preconditioned to react a certain way to a certain situation.

S a little basic psychology, and a medieval group of people with all the trademarks of "susceptible, uneducated peasants" could go a long way.

But saying "you can't see me, niener niener niener", and suddenly dissapearing is a little too much for me :)

***



Do you have tapes of any of those things? Because if I get to live in 5 different houses with someone, and they all become haunted, and I see ghosts and things moving... I'd tape some of it.

The Poindexter in this instance was one Stanley Milgram. I think it was a study in conformity or something. Trying to account for why seemingly ordinary people can commit atrocities, depending on the situation. It was darned interesting.




Since we're on the psychology angle here, I agree. An experiment I remember reading about (for A'Level Psychology. Study Psychology when you get the chance, people, it's fascinating and the only exam I really enjoyed) was where a class of students actaully trained their tutor to stand on a wastepaper basket. They did this by only paying attention to the lesson when he was near the wastepaper basket - and then refining things so that eventually he would stand ON the wastepaper basket to get their attention. I know it sounds unlikely but I remember reading that. Positive reinforcement is a great influence on people.

There's plenty more examples: like the 23 out od 24 law students who told their "clients" to purge themselves to win a case, after their professor told them "To win this case, I suggest you tell your client to purge him/herself"

But that's just a question of ethics and moral. I found this far more interesting: I dug up the movie of those people in the mall all rasing their hands. It's a part of a show from Derren Brown. He does some "mind control" tricks, all related to psychology.

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites.../suggestion.ram

And here's some more on Derren Brown: http://www.derrenbrown.co.uk/mind_control.asp

Yeah, mass hypnotism might have been the wrong word, but the suggestion of the consciousness being affected is more what I had in mind. Although I'll admit not actually having thought of the consciousness, but it makes even more sense.

I read a vampire story just last night called ''The Parasite'' which had an Indian women hypnotize her victims. Of course they went willingly, but she was able to store orders in her victim's minds, and then, like a clock setting off, they would do what she told them to do while under the trance or lethargy or whatever. Murdering people, professing love, whatever..at whatever time she told them to, two hours or two years from the hypnotism session.

So while that's off topic, it's still an example that hypnotism is sometimes used in vampire stories, so my example couldn't be so far fetched. (Especially since it came from Bryan Lumley.) And of course the point of this topic remains hypothetical..but anyways, I wasn't crazy!

I was reading through the posts here and I just have to say that I disagree with you about magick and psychic energy. Although this has nothing do with Vampyrism, magic and psychic energy do exist. Whereas vampires are mythical creatures, magic and psychic energy are techniques practiced by many people through ritual for religious means.

I've known people to work in circle and come out with marks on their arms from physical contact from the other side. They have the scars to prove it. Magick does work. Psychic energy does work. Ever been under psychic attack? My HP woke up one night back in the early 90's when there were several witch wars going on in the area, and felt an overpowering force holding him into his bed and he could barely breathe. That is a psychic attack.

I guess the thing we must all remember is this: For those of us who practice magick, that have seen the affects of it, we know it is real. But we've never seen a vampire, so we don't believe. And vice versa. For those of you who say you've seen a real vampire, you believe, but have never worked magick to know its affects, so you don't believe. And then there are the ones who just don't believe in anything until proven otherwise.

*claps*
Do you practice magick? I forgot to ask you that...whenever it was we were talking. I lost track of days again. :lol:

If magic/psychics were real, then why have their abilities NEVER been substantiated in reputable science journals?

Why has the randi challenge not been answered?

What you describe sounds psychosomatic to me.

well if magick and psychic energy do not exist, then I guess neither does air, gravity or YOU for that matter.

Of course we don't exist. We're a figment of the Internet imagination!!! Silly goose, didn't you know that?

:lol: :D :lol: :D :lol:

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."

If something is observable it can become scientific.

Everything abides by the laws of existance, or it doesn't exist. Therefore, a claim like "show me something that is not real, and I'll give you a whole lotta monay!" seems a bit moronic. If you could show them such things, not to say you can't, they would no longer be considered paranormal, they would be normal.

Say the physical existance of the human soul was discovered, accepted, and protrayed. Would people continue to think of it as super natural? And yet so many things in the past have been labled "supernatural", which basically means "impossible".

If "everything" is our term"Nature" then something outside of that is "Nothing".
Of course Majick doesn't exist to the degree it is explained, nor ghosts, nor ESP....but is that because such things don't exist...or merely we have not measured them?

Simply put, people do not believe in things that they have not experienced.

And yes, Nemesis Chylde, I AM a silly goose, Thank you ;) B)

Well gee, you might have a point if we couldn't measure, observe, or test air, gravity, or me...

but guess what?

You can!

Your point...successfully busted...:D

Something doesn't necessarily have to be observed to be scientific.



The point is, that no one CAN/HAS shown these things-so why should we accept them as real? Why should I waste my money on psychic lines when I'd do just as well guessing?



I don't understand what you are saying, are you saying that it would be a *bad* thing for the human soul to be discovered scientifically?



If they can not be measured, tested, confirmed, etc, then why should we say such things exist?

Sorry , =/. What i mean to say is: I think, if something paranormal was discovered, proven to exist, it would no longer be considered paranormal.
Just like anything else that they say didn't exist and turned out to exist anyhow.
For example:
I'm sure there are cryptozoological records of things that predate the known existance of things now accepted as zoological.

My point is: pseudoscience may become science, and at that point is no longer with the "pseudo" part.
And that the Paranormal is only paranormal untill it is explained. And after that the forget how it was critisized and considered paranormal. They say:"Oh, well here is why its like that, not because of some supernatural force" Well duhh, if you could explain the supernatural force you would no longer consider it supernatural.
Perhaps I make no since.
Oh well.

I mean, once they can see it, feel it, wittness it, test and explore it. They will declare it something other than the paranormal, they will come up with, or reinstate a "pseudo"-science as science. And say "Oh no, that wasn't paranormal. See, we made since of it. The paranormal doesn't exist."

Well, I have news. The "Paranormal" does exist, it is merely something "normal" that is yet to be explained.

Example:
And when you show them a floating cat, they explain it scientifically, you get no money, and the challenge is still there. DOes this mean the floating cat was never paranormal? No, it was paranormal. It just isn't unknown now. So now, it's Normal.

Obviously something "Supernatural" cannot exist, but merely because it is above someone's understanding does not make it non-existant.
The definition of the word itself is faulty.

ok meatros.

So you are the type of person that has to see to believe? Or are you one of those that believe something only if it is scientifically proven?

There is no scientific 'cure' for infinity. And magick is infinite. Magick is what the mind sees, not a physical manifestation (although sometimes it does occur). Just because you haven't experienced anything like it, don't say 'scientific blah blah blah' about it because science doesn't prove everything, sometimes the very proof you are looking for has to come from your own personal experience.

*pets Namaah* You tell him gal.

Not necessarily, although I think I see where you are going. If something was thought to be paranormal was discovered and it turned out to be normal, that's one thing. But just being discovered, wouldn't necessarily make the thing any less 'paranormal'.

I would say that I'm a skeptic, so I don't necessarily take things just on face value. Whatever the 'thing' is, it needs to have some evidence before I will believe it-why would I believe just on the basis of what someone else says, considering that they are saying something outrageous?



I don't follow you; infinity is a mathematical concept, not an actual "thing". I can't think of an infinity of something, can you?

In addition, if Magic is unable to be studied, then how do you know that magick is "infinite"?

Also, science isn't the only thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about evidence, for which, magic has none.

You act as though I've never sat down with a group of people who are 'attempting' to perform spells-as though I have no experience what-so-ever with this. This would be incorrect. I've seen what people purport to be magic first hand, several times, and not one time was anything mystical or supernatural occuring.

So I repeat, if you can't measure it and it has no evidence, then why believe in it?

Why do you believe?

Because magick is a personal experience for each individual. No two people will experience the same thing magickally. I believe in it because of experiences thathave happened to me that could not be explained through science or anything else. You might it say it could be coincidence, but I don't think so.

Just to ask a few more questions: If no two people experience the same thing, magically speaking, then how do you know that the incident is a result of magic and not some other supernatural thing?

As, why couldn't it be explained by science? What happened?

Where in science does it say anything about people knowing things before they are going to happen? What about doors slamming shut during ritual even though no one else is there and there cannot possibly be any draft and it did not affect the burning of the candles? What about pulling up through a fast food drive thru and grabbing a handful of change without counting it, you make your order, they tell the amount and you count the change only to find it is the exact amount they say? What about dreaming of a person that you know driving by in a car and the next day you see them driving by in a car on the same road as in your dream?

It is a result of magic because that is what I practice and I know it works because of my own experiences and the experiences of my coven mates as well as other traditional witches around the area.

That sort of thing is called ghosts. Not magic. And it HAS been scientifically documented. :D

All of that...is called ... coinkidink. (coincidence, coincidence.)

These sorts of things have natural explanations. Check the Skeptic's Dictionary under the appropriate topic.

The thing is, all to often people confuse what they wish to be with what actually is. In addition, there has been no substantiated "psychic" and usually they have the same success rate as a random person guessing.



In other words, you really don't know if it's 'magic' or something else. Could be that one of the people casting spells with you is rigging the experiment. It could be coincidence. It could be a lot of things. If you want to go the supernatural route, it could be that a demon/ghost is actually casting these spells for you, perhaps in an effort to trick you or something.

No, I have to disagree. I believe in Magick because it works. You may call it ghosts having doors slam shut, but when you are in ritual for a specific thing and it happens, you know your magick has worked. I am aware of ghosts only because I have been ghost hunting for years with a few people around the Fresno, California area and I can distinguish between magick and ghosts. In some instances, yes, doors slamming shut would be considered a ghost, but not in that instance. In any other case it would have been but for that certain ritual it was not.

Could be coincidence about the change and the dream etc., but there is one small flaw; If it occurs on a daily basis it is no longer a coincidence, but the result of what is occuring due to what you practice. If a person is practicing magick and they are asking for these abilities and they happen, then it is directly associated with magick. If a person does not practice magick but they are a hardcore christian and pray all the time etc., then they probably think of it as God's doing or a miracle. Other people who simply have no religion whatsoever and believe everyone else is full of shit for holding any kind of belief at all, will simply call it a coincidence if something happens to them that they cannot, by any scientific means, explain or being to understand.

Magick is real to me. Thanks guys for the interesting conversation, even if you don't agree, I respect that. I am happy that we can keep things on an adult level. I've had this conversation on several other boards and people get way out of line and end up putting others down and start flaming each other. I'm glad this board does not tolerate that and that we can converse maturely.

I'm sure you already know this but just in case:

Because a so-called natural explanation can seemingly fit within the given parameters of the experience it does not mean that it is the true cause for the effect. There very well could be more information either realized or not realized that would seemingly invalidate individual natural explanations that was just not yet given. Or any other number of explanations. So the natural explanation is rally nothing more than a possibility (though seemingly more likely in general) just as a so-called supernatural explanation is another possibility.

That skepdic site, btw, is good general reading. But sometimes they lack much depth as to what they speak of. It would be nice if they would give more details, cite more sources, and show more evidence for occurance. It is funny sometimes to seemingly see leaps of thought occuring even among skeptical sources. I wonder if the book has any more depth into individual aspects or is it just a copy of the site?

Okay, sorry for hijacking the disscussion.... Carry on. Lalalal.... lol :)

Perhaps it could be magic. Perhaps...JUST MAYBE!!! It could be part of that ninety percent of our brains that we don't use, don't know how to use...etc, etc. Could be...that these things are perfectly normal. Some people see ghosts, some don't. Some people seem to have some psychic ability, some don't. Personally, I'm coming to a point that I don't believe in magic. I do believe in something having the potential to happen, and a lot of times, the mere power of suggestion puts it over the edge. My fiancee 'practices' and while I don't ridicule him for it, I do think that it's all rather silly. Hm. Was it Meatros? lemme look. Yes...He said this... And I think that could very well be it. I think all that magic is, is the summoning of various spirits/ghosts. Now, in that sense, yeah, it exists. But without their help? Forget it. At least that's my opinion.

Like you say here, Namaah... then that lends to say that you believe these things happen to people who don't practice magic. And if it happens to them? How can it be magic? This is why I say that it's part of our brains that we don't use/understand.

Just my own perspective. Everyone needs something to believe in, a crutch for their existence, whether it be a higher power, magic, or their boyfriend/girlfriend. For myself, it's God/Jesus Christ. So, whatever makes you happy. :)