Is this considered rape: When the other person is unaware, and there is no physical touch involved. When it is merely an essence touching another essence, and the feelings instilled from it are amplified through similar suggestions, in story or communication. I've been pondering this a lot of late, since in RP sessions it can be rather easy to get carried away. Thoughts, everyone?

I wouldn't say it could be considered a such. In the case of essences actually being able to "touch" each other in this manner, I would say the only case in which it would be rape was if the essence that is being "touched" was aware of it, and also against it, yet, couldn't do anything to prevent it.

But if the inability to prevent it is the criteria, then if either party is unaware of the act in itself, doesn't that by your reasoning make it so? If you don't know that it can happen, how would you know how to prevent it? I'm told the feeling manifests itself as a pleasant sensation, though.

Well, we ought to consider why regular rape is regarded as such. Yeah, it is because of the lack of consent, but what causes this lack of consent? And can it be applied to "other planes of existence" as well?

... you have just rephrased my question without answering it :]

I think it all depends on if they can sense it or not. If they cannot sense it there's no possible way for them to feel violated. Without a feeling of violation I don't think there can be rape, as if a sexual rape victim is not violated they're not likely to report it as a rape. I think, and I may be wrong as I have never been raped, that without violation it's pretty much consensual sex.

Of course, if they can sense it, there is a possibility of violation and therefore could be construed as rape, but how exactly does one go about proving astral contact without consent?

It's kind of like that old, overused tree allegory. If a tree falls in the middle of a forest and no sentient being is aware of it happening, then can this event be so irrelevant that it can be disregarded as a factual occurence? I mean, the tree did fall, but its fall didn't trigger anything else, it probably stayed there, unnoticed, and over the course of millenia, probably was again assimilated and recycled, its components become the building blocks of other organisms which also lived and died and in the end it seemed to be an irrelevant fact, but a fact nonetheless.

So I guess the answer is "It might be rape, but nobody cares as long as the victim doesn't realize it".

In the exact case he's referring to, no, it isn't... I think all argument to the contrary died with "and the feelings instilled from it are amplified through similar suggestions, in story or communication." This requires an investment of belief and/or feeling from the perspective of the party that he is attempting to consider being "raped", this isn't rape...

Is it rape if a chick is reading a Danielle Steele novel and gets a little wet? I think not... Don't see where the question is here, you're making much too much of an abstract concept out of an abstract concept... ;0)

What if a girl is forced to read a Danielle Steele novel and Danielle Steele suddenly gets wet?

Then she's making way too much money

Touché.

I have always been told that to do anything like this without the persons explicit permision is wrong. I can see the argument that it doesn't matter if the person is unaware of it, but isn't that abotu the same as raping some one after they've been drugged with a date rape drug? It's still wrong even if the person isn't aware of the other person's actions. I realize in this situation your not intentionally doing anything to prevent her from aware of it, but it's the closest analogy I could find. I just think it's important to stress that consent should be gains first.

You clearly missed the point about the other party experiencing it as well, and even experiencing a pleasant sensation from it... That requires a conscious investment of thought/imagination and therefore awareness...

I think my point stands either way.

It sure does, just not in the context of this thread... Although changing it to a ethical debate is probably where this needs to go, if it is to go...

well it is really an ethical question, and of the people who I have talked to about this type of thing, could not stress enough the importance of getting the other person's permission. Although I have to say if this other person was aware, and reciprocated, that pretty much tells me that permision was given.

Well, no, it isn't... Not in the sense of the question that started this thread.... But in the spirit of keeping this thread going, the ethical debate is the next logical step...

Legally, as long as science cannot both prove the existance of the metaphysical (getting there, but not quite) and how people can steer their noncorporeal bodies to certain acts, there's no way something as this would hold up in court. Not to mention the distances this can be done over... heh.

I guess that the ethical debate was indeed the direction I was going to steer it in. It is a closeness at an emotional/spiritual/noncorporal (whichever term you prefer) level, this. The other person will definately be aware of it at some level, but I doubt the person would be able to interpet this as a deliberate "spiritual touch" (for lack of a better term). The awareness manifests as a pleasant, perhaps sensual feeling. Having no explanation for it, the subject will typically think themselves attracted to the other party (or how the other party makes him/herself manifest), and in doing so, open themselves to the sensation. After all, if you think you're attracted to someone, is it wrong to feel erotic desires?
The issue here is the cause of these feelings. With the other party unaware of the true source of them...

doign something like that sounds like it could be used to manipulate another person if they aren't really aware of what's going on, possibly for other things aswell. What this really comes down to though is whether you feel it is wrong to do it, despite what anyone else might say, and because as you say, no court would see such a case. But you still have to live with yourself and the knowledge of it.

Gee, B Spider, is what you just said a repetition of what Omega Trust said to you two times in a row? Do you think you came up with that idea or something?

No need to play at the person here, Jason. People will think the same thoughts sometimes, and write the same things, as well.

As to answer Spider's question... I am undecided. The motive on rape is generally to dominate the subject, or to gratify self at the expense of the subject. Leaving the subject to feel violated. This does not create those feelings, at least not to my knowledge. Granted, there is a measure of manipulation involved, but considering manipulation is at the core of human social behaviour, I don't neccesarily feel this a bad thing. After all, isn't attempting to seduce a partner through clothing, scent or body language just manipulation of a different form?

Do I feel it is wrong to do this? No, I do not. I was merely wondering what everyone else's views on this were.

This happens in SecondLife...People have tried to sue others for virtual rape...Bit stupid if you ask me.

The key word in rape is consent. It's rape if consent was not obtained prior to the act.

How can you possibly rape someone without physically touching them?
Might make more sense if you actually defined your use of the word 'rape'. 'Sides, in doing so, you'll probably answer your own question.



Science cannot prove metaphysics. Ever. By it's very definition, if it is proved by science it is physics, NOT metaphysics. Also, how is science getting close to proving metaphysics? Metaphysics is quite a big area. What specifically metaphysical do you think is close to being proven?

Throne777

If you carry this arguement to it's limits, then fantasizing about someone without their consent could be considered rape. i don't know about any of you, but I do not have the level of self control to prevent myself from doing that. Fortunately, the thought police do not have the technology to do much about it yet...

Then what is consent? If you feel the emotions you are instilling returned (as typically happens), is that consent? I doubt every time you have sex with your partner you'd ask him/her if it was allright to do so. There is a body language of sorts involved (which granted, is too often misinterpreted). In this form, there is no body involved, at least not a physical one. So how does one obtain implied consent? What is it in this form?


If you define rape as physically forcing yourself onto another's body without the other party wanting that to happen, then in your opinion this would likely not be rape. But the physical body, to me, is but one of three parts that make a person. This topic concerns not the physical part...

I must to my shame admit I cannot seem to recall the link. I will make a point to bookmark relevant links tomorrow if my workload permits it.

Fantasizing does not involve touching another, on any level. It is more a form of masturbation, at best. I would personally never consider such rape.

I asked you to define what you considered rape, as your definition does not seem to be any which I am familiar with. Once you have your definition, you should be able to answer your own question. The problem lies in that you are not defining what you're trying to see fits into it, obviously no progress can be made if this is the case.

Throne777

There's two types, legally - express and implied.

Express consent is affirmative, i.e., when your partner says, "Yeah, let's go fuck" when you make an advance.
Implied consent is the absence of a negative, i.e., not resisting you when you engage in sexual contact. That's why the element of resistance is key to a rape trial - if a defense attorney can prove that the alleged victim did not resist the alleged perpetrator, then it makes it much harder for the prosecution to prove its case.

In a legal context, however, for an offense to be called rape, there has to be an established sexual violation of the victim without obtaining consent. It would be next to impossible to extend that definition to the metaphysical. I mean, how does one prove before a court that one has been metaphysically raped?

My thoughts exactly, Pier. It is impossible to prove in a courtroom that my aura got fingerfucked in the ass because the prosecution has to prove you even have an aura in the first place.

Call the Ghostbusters?

Throne777

Well. Rape is a state that has been defined by society, not by myself individually. I suppose there are two definitions here that I think people are getting mixed up. One is the legal sense, described in detail by Archangel. I have nothing to add to that.
The second definition is what people personally consider rape. This definition is unique to each individual. Since the question of wether or not this would legally be considered rape is already answered (It is impossible to prove or disprove, so it would never come into court and hold up) the next question is wether or not, you personally, would consider this rape.

At it's core I think, rape is best defined as one, or a series of actions by one or more parties that leave at least one of the involved feeling violated in some degree. And yes, that means I do not constrain rape to it's sexual form. Since this feeling of violation is not manifesting in this emotional touching, I would personally not consider it rape.

My curiosity is to what others would find. I can understand if people think otherwise about it, but I am curious as to the motivation for doing so.


Please, disregard the legal aspect from here on. It is fairly clear that legally, there is no way to prove such would actually take place. The question here is a moral one, and one to each and every individual that feels willing to answer. Do you consider this rape, and why.

I would not consider this rape if I couldn't tell someone was violating my etheral being. Consider this... if you have a garden out front with ten thousand flowers and someone in the middle of the night takes a small flower that you will never be able to count and see that it's gone, do you call the cops? Of course not, you can't tell you lost anything so you would not be out anything.

I wouldn't consider that rape, any more than a person who metaphysically stabs me would be guilty of murder.

* metaphysically kicks Pier in the nutsack and waits for a response *

No effect, no deed. The matter of perception is also a murky area. Are you raped when you feel raped even though you're not sure anyone else took action? What if it's all in your head? What if what one person considers feeling raped another finds completely comfortable.

I may be going off on a bit of a tangent there.