I am looking for in depth information regarding Ravens and Crows.

What are the major spiritual differences in the two...

And why are the linked so closely together?

Any information would be helpful.

I have read more than a few books regarding Totem Animals and the meanings behind them. Internet sources are pretty much the same...

Um, I know they are linked to the Morrigan and her equivalents(possibly more the crow than the raven though), and are regarded, I think, as part of the darker side of things - death and the like, them being carrion pickers and all.

I'm sorry I don't have more information, but I would like to say I am also interested in what other inormation the rest of the people can turn up. This has brought my interest back to a dream I had a month or so ago, involving the Morrigan and crows.

the crow and the raven are often given the same roles due to their simular apperance (and many people who don't know the differene confuse them for one another)

Morrigan the goddess of death uses crows as messengers.

Odin the king of the Aeser gods uses a Raven as his spy.

However both can be seen as spies and as messengers of death, as can many birds in the same family (the Blue Jay being the only odd ball, mostly due to not being black or darkly colored).

Their associations have more to do with being carrion eaters, clever/curious birds, and their color than anything else.

Rhuen~

Thank you for that information. I honestly didn't know that the Crow was connected to Morrigan. So that has already furthered my knowledge on the subject.

My question to you is, being Carrion Eaters, would the Raven and Crow work with or against one another?

I was a witness to quite the "fight" between a Crow and Raven a few days ago, and since have been trying to figure out what the meaning is behind it.

One of my Totem Animals is the Red Tail Hawk, so I know that with any member of the bird family seeing an event such as that signals the beginning of something...

Also, as with anything all numbers hold meaning.....There is an old Wives Tale relating to Ravens, "See one Raven....Death is coming....Two a Marriage...Three a Blessing" How true to facts is that?

I could keep going with the questions....but suppose I ought to stop here....I can get confusing when I ramble on about something.

they are competitors, feeding on the same food. However both also feed on other things (omnivores) like corn, nuts, insects, small rodents. That they don't go out of their way to fight each other if they don't have to.

as to the second part about the sightings, sounds like superstition to me, like a black cat walking across your path causing bad luck.

Ah but some superstitions are grounded in reality.

Some sources link the Raven to the Archangel Raphael. It is said that he uses them as messengers to help aide with sick or dying children..through personal experience I have seen that to be the case.

As for the Crow.....my knowledge is far limited.

I'm looking for a spiritual connection between the two. Not so much the biological and physical make-up.

Learning how to read signs and omens in nature is a very important tool, I think, for anyone interested in the Occult side of things....so what I am trying to do is, read the Raven...and and study the Crow...find out why they are hailed as not only messengers but bringers of death....aside from the obvious tails of each.

I suppose what I am looking for is the "Story of Creation." The beginning so-to-speak. What caused the early peoples to set aside different meanings for each animal? And how did they know what to set aside for each?

Thanks Rhuen

It's an old nursery rhyme, Counting Crows used it in their song Murder of One:

One for sorrow,
Two for joy.
Three for girls, and
Four for boys.
Five for silver,
Six for gold.
Seven for a secret,
Never to be told.

There are other versions:

One for sorrow, two for mirth,
Three for a wedding, four for a birth,
Five for silver, six for gold,
Seven for a secret not to be told.
Eight for heaven, nine for hell,
And ten for the devil's own sel'.

One for sorrow,
two for mirth,
three for a wedding,
four for birth,
five for rich,
six for poor,
Seven for a witch,
I can tell you no more.

One's lucky,
Two's unlucky,
Three is health,
Four is wealth,
Five is sickness
And six is death.

One for sorrow, two for mirth,
Three's a wedding, four's a birth,
Five is Heaven, six is Hell,
Seven is the Devil himself.

One crow sorrow,
Two crows joy,
Three crows a letter,
Four crows a boy.

One for sorrow, two for joy,
Three for a girl, four for a boy,
Five for silver, six for gold,
Seven for a secret never to be told,
Eight for a wish, nine for a kiss,
And ten for a time of joyous bliss.

One for sorrow, two for mirth,
Three for a wedding, four for birth,
Five for rich, six for poor,
Seven for a witch; I can tell you no more.

One for sadness, two for mirth,
Three for marriage, four for birth,
Five for laughing, six for crying,
Seven for sickness, eight for dying,
Nine for silver, ten for gold,
Eleven a secret that will never be told.

Original versions were actually about magpies.

Counting Crows



As far as Native American tradition it's best to start with a particular tribe that has stories of raven and crow. One such tribe is the Tlingit, I've learned quite a bit about their creation myths as I researched them for a character in my novel (a section is posted as a short story in the Dark Whispers section titled The legend of the Indian of Stone).

To the Tlingit the raven god was known as Yehl.

Some stories of crow and raven include:
This
This
This

This one is about how raven tricked crow.

Also found this:
Raven in Mythology

Culthero~
Thank you!! That is exactly what I'm looking for! Now, I'm going to sit and read through all of the information you so kindly gathered up, I'm sure after which I will come up with a whole slew of questions..

I'm not too sure how relevant this is, but I recently just finished reading a poetry book that bascially told the story of the character Crow. In this he seems to have been around and in the Garden of Eden.

It's called Crow and I think it's by Ted Hughes.

EDIT: This is a link to someone writing about the book - http://www.zeta.org.au/~annskea/Trickstr.htm