Jung was and is very interesting. I've been reading much about him lately and am very impressed.

Here is something else about him:

When he was begining to delve into the subconscious realm of his "self" actively he eventually encountered soemthing that became very significant to him more so than the others he met. It was a wise old man with wings, having horns like a bull and held four keys in his hands. The old man, who sort of looked a bit like the classic image of a wizard - like merlyn in Lord of the Rings - Jung knew as Philemon. Philemon told told him that he could teach Jung things that most are not usually aware of... Philemon became very real to Jung and had many conversations with him, both what we know and what we don't. Philemon became so important that Jung had his name inscribed above the entrance to his retreat home, as well as paintings depicting him.

Jung also did a lot of work with mandalas, which he sort of associated with healing energies. A natural representation of the self. Holding keys to things locked within the subconscious, expressing things that are hidden. And a balancing force, as well. Much of his work with mandalas was in his later years... Jung used and observed mandala imagery when workign with his patients as well...

Regarding Freud, it was quite rocky, but strange. They used to have a friendship, reportedly talking at one time together for nearly a dozen hours straight and exchanging over 300 letters int he course of seven years. But it all reportedly changed one day when Jung was at Freud's home when they once heard a loud knock appearing to come from a bookcase. Accordign to JUng he predicted that another one would soon come and it did... Freud then was shocked at the time. Later Freud chastised him severely talking about how initially he was severely disturbed by it, but later convinced himself that it is wholly implausable and then proceeded to basically mock Jung about it telling him that he looked forward to hearing more about his investigations of the "spook complex" and "delusions"... Freud would also go on to basically place himself as Jung's "father" - "warning him to keep a cool head" - in the way Freud generally was ... sort of implying that Jung was a sensationalist young man subject to Freud's wiser knowledge. Jung then eventially got upset over this and wrote back angrily about it. Eventually they never met again after 1912.

Jung in his works wrote one which summed up Freud, a sort of critique. Among one of the many things he attacked Freud about was his apparent preoccupation with sex in every one of his theories which I beleive Jung labelled as being "juvenile". An example would be Freud's "Leonardo Da Vinci and a Memory of His Childhood" ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...5395970-4007341 ) where he basically butchers Leonardo's notebooks, makes numerious mistranslations and speculates on leonardo's sexuality and issues such as why he completed so few of the works he started -- linking it things such as his relationship with his mother and early abandonment by his father. Usually this work is often cited as an example of Freud's overconfidence and infatuation with using sexuality and his theories to explain everything regardless of truth.

If someone wants some of Jung's works, I can provide some over time in electronic format. Just let me know.

lol. er. Gandolf. :)

edit.

Must have been Freud's 'id' coming out?

=P

Yeah, it was definately something. He seemed overall more a very ambitious and forceful man with his theories. Almost like a minister, except instead of preaching religion, he is preaching his theories.

I figured I would share some quotes from Jung about Freud:











-- "In memory of Sigmund Freud", Carl Jung. Originally "Sigmund Freud: Ein Nachruf," Sonntagsblatt der Basler Nachrichten, 33:40. (Oct, 1939)

Interesting posts.

"Memories, dreams, Reflections" by C.G. Jung. Vintage books edition, 1965; Random House, inc.; p.312-313

p.156



p.362




p. 364






p.157


"Memories, dreams, Reflections" by C.G. Jung. Vintage books edition, 1965; Random House, inc.;


It is interesting to see the emotion behind these events with Jung and Freud.. Particularly the poltergeist incident and how Frued reacted to it at first, then over the next few years his gradual changing and somewhat openness to being open to occultic influences.

From reading Jung, he dismisses Freud's belief that Jung had a "death wish" for him as being a fantasy. But from reading Jung's own words and how he sees experiences asnd views them, I think the belief that Freud was trying to be "like a father to him" deeply disturbed him on a subconscious level.

In the event with the bookcase -- the so called poltergeist -- it is noteworthy that Freud talks about it being the very same day that he tried to formally "make Jung his sucessor" and how he found this ironic that such an event occured to distance them. Freud felt Jung turned this into an issue to distance himself from him.

Jung's occultic background and his experiences speak for themselves in showing that Jung had psychic talents and abilities that made themselves known. From reading these passages and seeing the feelign that is existing between them, I almost wonder if the instance of the poltergeist occurance came from Jung himself as something he manifested (uncontrolled) as a response to being made deeply nervous and troubled by Freud trying to act like a father and make him his successor. Jung details about he felt about this - given that the two men were great friends and how Jung sort of had to "hold back" this may have "stirred the waters" to bring forth such an occurance.

In a way the poltereist could have also been a sort of wish fullfillment. The great disparity between Jungs often immaterial ways of looking at things and Freud's materialism (Jung talks on and on about this being something in Frued) ... in a way saying "I'll show this guy". to try to open up his friend a bit.

Then to support this there is the cases of Freud fainting upon the discussions of father-related situations. Something that Freud and Jung both had an understanding, though differing views between them, about. In fact, Jung's speech against the father complex sort of shows the emotion inherent in it, perhaps his relationship with Freud was much of the reason that made him predisposed to strike out and be irritated about it in the first place.

We see that Frued faints in two instances like this in the presence of Jung. Jung discusses how Freud openly told him that he believed Jung had a death wish against him. Jung dismissed it entirely. And stated that he believed this belief was what caused Freud at ,least partially to faint in the first place.

But there is nother view that Jung either did not consider or else did not wish to be open about. That perhaps his emotional charge (which was very strong from the instances, anyone can see) in relation to Freud and his inner resentment of him and resistance may have caused some or all of these instances to occur as a sort of psychic manifestation or defense.

You can see in Freud's interpretation of Jung predicting the "report from the bookcase" that Freud thought Jung took great pleasure in this. In fact, Freud explicitly talks about how ironic he finds it that Jung took pleasure in this when it felt to him (freud) that he was sort of doing Jung a favor. Also in the instance where Jung is picking up Freud after fainting and placing him on the couch, in his own words, he interprets Freud's look as him looking at Jung "like he was his father". This shows what was deeply in Jung's mind at the time.

At the very least from reading and feeling things, you also sort of get the feeling that Freud was threatened by Jung somewhat and sort of scared of him. His reaction to Jung's occultic studies at times shows hidden openess. In a few cases such as where he discusses probability relating to the number 61 (he even admits writing down all the times he sees this number for a time, so deeply is it in his mind) and how he felt that it might mean that he would die at age 61, there is almost the sense that Freud sort of believed Jung but was hiding it.... not wishing to talk about it. Like he was kind of asking Jung of confirm or deny whether he would really die and this age. In a way asking for help. You kind of see this in Freud's letters to Jung at times despite how hard he hides it behind a mask.

I wonder if Jung ever considered the possibility of soem of the things occuring of this sort being related to manifestations relating to himself. Given his background and intelligence I find it hard to doubt, but I wonder if emotionally he would have considered it or would have been able to openly say anything.

Before looking into this, I sort of resented Freud as being a pompous materialist with his own agendas differiing from the drive for truth (mucha s Jung saw him at times). But now I sort of feel sorry for him and empathize. He had his ways that he could not really change easily, and so much on his shoulders. Also that his instincts about Jung may have been somewhat right, I find fascinating and have to respect him for that., in addition to feel for him due to any negative influences that Jung may have accidently thrown upon them.

It would be interesting to have more of their interactions over years.

p.292



p.191





p. 379


"Memories, dreams, Reflections" by C.G. Jung. Vintage books edition, 1965; Random House, inc.;

Anima and Animus ("soul" )



http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/animaanimus2.html




http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A653438 (Excellent article!)


Negative aspects of the anima



Positive aspects of the anima




"Memories, dreams, Reflections" by C.G. Jung. Vintage books edition, 1965; Random House, inc.;


Commentry on "grounding" when working with "fantasies"




More quotes from Jung on the Anima:

http://psikoloji.fisek.com.tr/jung/anima.htm


Interesting commentary and quotes on the Anima and Animus in a more spiritual way:

http://www.bemyastrologer.com/anima_meets_...html#darkanimus

Real Gem quotes from Jung:

[ consciousness within the unconscious? Not such a clear cut thing. ]



[and even with speech like this Jung was still often denounced as mystic with no applicablility in science about such matters. ]




"The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious" Translated by R.F.C Hull; Author: CG Jung; [The collective works of c.g jung V. 9, part I] ISBN 0-691-01833-2 (pb) or 0-691-09761-5 (hard)

The superconscious, I believe in. I see it in symbology - one that I know of - as the tower. Especially the tower which climbs to the heavens or higher than anything else. This associates with the idea of the biblical tower of babel or what they made it into. The tower reaches to "God" (perfection, unity, connectiveness) or whereby man becomes as a god (depending on how you look at it). When you see the tower symbolism combined with school symbolism, it might also be a dead giveaway to this. Because it throws a loose association with "learning" and wisdom upon the tower symbology. I notice Cayce spoke of the tower association with the superconscious as well.

I have noticed personal associations with the symbology of the tower throught my life which would reflect my attitudes and beliefs towards this idea. Even though consciously I did not understand. For example, during a certain time when younger - the tower was something I was motivated to destroy (etc) . Because of the way that I was....it was my religious beliefs and such coupled with dogmatic influences (and things such as fear) which brought this. But recently within the last few years the tower became tied with symbols of worship and such, something revered. For example the tower would be surrounded by incense and people would walk in and out of it. Always being the cause of great wonder as well. I notice that my attitude abotu the tower then linked with my outlook and reaction to certain things at the time. Has anyone else noticed this with them? Again, I saw it with cayce... and a few others. But I woner if it is near universal among humans?

It is interesting how powerful symbology can be and how much it appears to resonate. Sorry, I don't know why I got triggered to talk so much of the tower when seeing the superconscious. The message was supposed to be about Jung. My appologies. But It does fit to my soemtimes rather warped mind... lol I really cannot help but make the association though you see.

jung is the most enlightened phychologist i know of. fuck freud and his stubborn cocaine prescriptions. wish i wasn't so lazy and actually had a read a decent amount of freud, but oh well. smart guy from what little i know of him.

I think you intend to mean that you wish you would have read more of Jung? Yes, I wish I heard of him before I did and that I actually paid attention more earlieir when he was brought to my attention. He is extremely helpful and insightful. However the amount of his works out there is extremely vast. "Memories, dreams, Reflections", his autobiography is a great place to start if you are interested. But it clashes in some areas with his earlier works... it was written when he was an older man.

Freud is more acknowledged and "mainstream" at present. Compared to Jung, I find him to be less helpful, yes, but he was still a genius. Between Freud and Jung together there is probably much more truth than either one alone.

I haven't read many of Freud's works at all. I keep meaning to, but always have other stuff that I feel more compelled to read first. I have heard that during a time when it was one of the in vogue questions of the day he wrote on telepathy and his opinions regarding it. I would find that interesting.

Btw, you know it is wierd, but every time you post, I half expect you to say "I'm batman" as the first two words. lol

(p.284)





(p.287)




(p. 288)



(p. 276)



(p.142)

"The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious" Translated by R.F.C Hull; Author: CG Jung; [The collective works of c.g jung V. 9, part I] ISBN 0-691-01833-2 (pb) or 0-691-09761-5 (hard)

This has been so interesting to read...partly because i'm currently studying psychology and so i have done abit on Jung. To add a bit of what i have leant in Jung's theories within dreaming..and apologise in advance if i repeat anything already said.... To him dreams had no deliberate disguised meanings but directly reflected the minds current state and therefore the content of dreams include thoughts and memories from the days conscious events and images reflecting our unconscious world. This is why dreams may seem bizzare as the waking conscious mind cannot interpret the language used by the unconscious and this is where Jung believed a therpaist could come in handy so to speak if dealing with an individual suffering a psychological problem.
One of the main differences between Freud and Jung in their theories of dreaming is the fact the Freud emphasised the 'dark and destructive' nature of unconscious influences on dream imagery whereas Jung emphasised the more 'positive' nature of these influences.
Jung believed that such a positive influence could be one that leads to creative ideas that come to us through our dreams an exmaple being Stevenson's Jekyll and Hyde which he claimed the idea for came to him through a dream.
However he did also suggest that an inbalance between the conscious and unconscious minds could lead to a psychological disorder. Therefore through a process of compensation, the psyche attempts to compensate for the imbalance by providing possible solutions through our dreams. Within the dream we may find many associations which are connected to the images we see. Jung further proposed that only through these associations can true meanings of a dream be discovered and this he referred to as amplication.

Thank you very much for sharing that. Psychology eh, you have my envy. :) I only took intro and then a wellness course. :(

Yeah, lol, you can probably tell that I *really* love Jung. He absolutely fascinates me with his life expierences and his works. I've learned a lot from reading him.

I notice with Jung a bit on the discussion of the anima, particularly the mother aspect, it seemed as if his experiences as a child sort of colored his perceptions about it. He talks a lot about how destructive the anima is, essentially how it can lead a man to ruin easily. Yet still, i notice he says much positive about the anima as well. But I sort of feel that he gives "her" a bad rap too often. I mean yes, he sees the anima as positive when it is balanced in his interpretation, but yet I think he sees too little good in "her" in other stages. Particularly with the value of the eruption, the inner conflict which actually forges the individual through conflict. It is only destructive when no balance can ever be attained and they are completely overwhelmed.

This quote, repeated, I find of merit from him and interesting:



Of course, "anima" is not really anything new (not even the name is "new"). Merely Jung repackaging what is often called other things into one name. He states so himself.

I go beyond what Jung stated and believe strongly that the anima is aware of things that not only go back but also forwards and works in the same way as Jung describes above. As the representative/communicator of the unconscious mind. The quote:



also of strong significance. He probably intends to show mainly the non-spatial (beyond limits of conventional known senses whereby distance is meaningless) method of communication in telepathic occurance to show this. But, the atemporal aspect is not elaborated on, pariticularly the ability to go forwards as well. Mainly that the unconscious also possesses a precognitive ability as well becuase it is atemporal. Which is also shown as much as the non-spatial reality, to me. Jung flirted with it a bit, particularly with his personal experiences (for example he had the famous preminition of world war I) . But it doesn't seem as if he liked to tie that in too much in his works that I have read.

Another thing which I notice. Speaking of dreams and such. I do beleive strongly that the dreams also have more than a mere expressive value (not speaking of anything "way out there" now). I believe they also influence and seed the conscious mind or at the least that they can bring the subconscious further towards fruitation. Being someone who ponders my dreams a lot, I have noticed a cause and effect relationship. Particularly with emotions - things like feeling, sexuality, etc. Some days I have been completely shocked to see that the dreams were nearlty 100% predictive of these things. Even when I know and see them, they still do not lose their apparent power wholly. I ponder that consciously knowing of such things allows the influence to be somewhat throtled. And also that in individuals that do not maintain conscious rememberance or significance of their dreams, probably experience a stronger influence on a subconscious level but do not realize it. That is, because it is largely unseen.

I ponder then that it is not just the mind trying to bring out a passive compensation, but an actual active process whereby it is essentially programming us. And this is whether or not we are "seeing" it. I find it very fascinating. And going beyond this, allowing room for a sort of consciousness or collective source (Jung at points seems contradictory about it to me?) to be at the helm of this process it makes it more interesting because in essence this would then be responsible for much of the direction we take. In a way, like our true "soul", if you will maintaining its grasp upon us. Using the dreams and the unconscious as the conduit. Just a theory is all. :icon12:

when it comes to Jung I also noticed that he sort of at times seemed to feel in conflict between his scientific nature and his more spiritual/mystical experience. Sometimes I get the feeling that he went back and forth. And definately at times that he had to ration what he said -- for they (including Freud) were already trying to dismiss him as nothing but a mystic in the end. And in his field, that was devestating at that time. Particularly given the influence Freud had and the clique like atmosphere that was often maintained. I don't think he could be as free sometimes as he really wanted. This and other things held him back. Later in his life, this is definately seen where he becomes much more moderate. Whether that is this and/or just the wisdom of old age (or change in perceptions) I guess I can't really say.

Even today it is shown how many see Jung, as a mystic - waaaay over the top so to speak. And this is today. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been back then. Here even is an article from "Psychology Today" where they attack Jung and Freud equally - with Jung being described as an "idol": http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pt...301-000044.html


Do you have anything good about amplification that goes into a lot of detail? I haven't yet seen anything really good yet about it. If you have any reccomendations or sources (or can post snippets) I would be most grateful. :banana00:

Ouch, I really went all out here. Sorry to ramble so!

It's no problem. I had kind of noticed you really like Jung..and i personally think it's great to see someone who loves to discuss a psychologist so passionately. I don't hear of many even from those i know who do psychology.

Unfortunately as it stands i don't have any further information on amplification but i must admit i haven't seen anything good on it as yet too. The only source i could possibly give you is obviously google to search on there and other then that a site i have come across before when looking into Jung: http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/jung.html sorry of it is of no use.

I forgot to add that i do however for anyone interested in Jung have a little online test based on Jung. It's called the Jung Typology test and basically after answering all the questions you will be given a four letter result which is your personality type. You can also get two different descriptions about the personality type. Enjoy!

It is a very good summary and very well put together.

The test is this one, right?

http://www.ship.edu/%7Ecgboeree/jungiantypestest.html

If so it was interesting.

Yes, I find Jung to be very interesting. lol yeah, probably beyond some psychologists... :) Its too bad that much of Jung's work has seemingly been dismissed or ignored so far by most. I find it sad. A few years ago I knew nothing of him. Probably in my intro to psych class in both college and high school, there was likely maybe only a sentence or two mentioned about him. I am very glad that I eventually listened to the sources that pointed him out and decided to have a look though.

I must apologise i didn't realise i had forgotten to put the link up for the Jung Typology test in my last post. The link you have holds similar questions to some of the questions asked in the test i have been on, which the link is for below. It was interesting to do nonetheless :4:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

I think that one reason Jung is dismissed or ignored is because he was a neo Freudian and being so I also think that perhaps people assume that Jung's work is the same or very similar to Freud. Fair enough some of his work does seem and indeed is similar to Freud but his work also hold many differences. Also where ever you look Freud is more known and studied as he is more commercialised so to speak so it seems to me others are more concerned with his theories then Jung's.

Unconcious and "Janus face"

(Janus - see http://www.meridiangraphics.net/janus.htm )



The Shadow



Unconscious older than the conscious



The Materialistic presumption of psyche's nature?





"The Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious" Translated by R.F.C Hull; Author: CG Jung; [The collective works of c.g jung V. 9, part I] ISBN 0-691-01833-2 (pb) or 0-691-09761-5 (hard)

Jung and Freud



Jung and life beyond death



....

"Memories, dreams, Reflections" by C.G. Jung. Vintage books edition, 1965; Random House, inc.;

I do think that´s very interesting. The idea of unconscious is very close to The Tao...
It has all things at the same time and also is "nothing"...
Because one things doens´t exist without other, like silence. There´s no silence if we don´t make a noise and there´s no noise without silence.
I think that these informations, even materialistic relate these ideas...

Well. I read the article about Janus.
That´s why all cleaning things for a new cycle are happening this month.
Janus starts all things but before that happens we need to get rid of unnecessary things and let new ones enter in life.
I´ve in this process since I STARTED to go in a Wiccan group, because it happens a change that prepares us for a new cycle, more natural and related to the seasons ans other festivals...

As in the unconscious seeing forwards and backwards in time?

I guess January is a new start secularly ( I celebrated new years too :) ), but to me spiritually I consider it to still be part of the old. I like to use March for my beginning and time of building (there are other reasons for this too for me besides being associated with a new year in ancient times), It once was like this (nearly) and it seems to more sense to me personally (can vary for many reasons) to associate winter with death ("destructive") and spring with life ("constructive"). I find that I have more energy then, and like you say, it is like a new start and a good time to build and begin ambitious projects. Jung once I believe (I may be remembering wrong, would have to locate the quote from a lot of material) spoke of this and these cycles, how they have been ipart of humanity for thousands of years and likely still stay with us to some degree as part of the structure. I'd say I have to agree. The unconsious does not forget so easily I do not think.

Related to this, I find it interesting that once the moon determined the brginning of the months. The sighting of the lunar crescent, was once the beginning. The full moon would be the middle. And of course the final waning, the end. I feel that we really lost something by not incorporating this into our modern calendar; it seems unnatural as is.

Good luck with the Wiccan group. I remember following that for a while and did learn some things from it, particularly relating to enjoying nature. I was never part of a wiccan group but I'm sure that comes with its own benefits with the right people...

An experience with a dream coming True



Dreams not always positive... may be traps. Sword that cuts both ways



Dreams as carriers of messages from unconcious to conscious



Jung on Dream Dictionaries



- "Man And His Symbols" by Carl Jung ISBN 0-440-35183-5

("Necropost", yes, but I figured someone else might like to see this movie and I did not wish to start yet another tropic for this so here we are.)

Here is a decent interview of Carl Jung in his final years. I just recently found this and watched it. It is rather interesting although the style reflects the time and is rather dry. But it goes into things such as his childhood, university as a student, relationship with Freud, and his beliefs in a god (see the other description. He does say litterally that he does not just beleive but that he "knows" although he does seem to acknowledge complexity in his beliefs). An interview in the latter years like this is good, but I would have loved a visual interview from his more middle years, although Jung is still very lucid even in the time presented here.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3685526/Fa...59__40_minutes)

Here is the description from TPB:



If you can't download it from the torrent for whatever reason and wish to see it, you can PM me if you'd like and I will set up an alternate way for you to download it. :)