A demiurge (plural demiurgi) is a normally disincarnated being which has a form of control over a principle. In general, if it is a law of physics, known or unknown, it probably has its own demiurge. Thermodynamics, Inertia, gravity, electromagnetic, radiation, evolution, solar processes, the list goes on.

Now, why shouldn't we just call these beings gods? Well, for one thing, in theory they would be the opposite of gods. By being disincarnated, they maintain delicate balances which in turn maintain the viability of our universe. This means that while bodiless and unconscious, they continue to live and exist as patterns inside the matrix of physical and metaphysical reality.

Why should these beings concern humanity or humanoids in general? Well, once in a great long while they become concentrated enough on a planet to form an avataric essence on that particular planet, remaining conscious for a certain number of lifetimes before dissapering back to their own dimension.

It is by their thought impulses that the Gods maintain their world, as the Gods control the matrix of reality and meta-reality, each god having to deal with the energies of certain demiurgi at certain times. To put a jungian spin on it, you could call these beings the 'shadow-minds' of the gods.

I welcome commentary on the subject but I do not wish to have to deal with harassment and will report it without warning.

Ending with a threat is not a good idea if you want people to listen to you, I will deal with any one harrassing anyone in this section so don't worry

although I would like to know where your definition of demiurgi comes from as My world mythologies dictionary defines it as one of the three monsters that existed in the void with Khaos before the world was created in Greek Mythology with Sylvios and Thanotos being the other two monsters or "gods"

Thanotos= essence of death

Sylvios=essence of life

Demiurgi=essence of innanimate creation

a good reason why this wouldn't be viewed as a "god" is because its a primodial god, the gods came from the titans, the titans came from Ghia and Uranus, and those two were created by Khaos and Nyx so their children would have something to do. So Demiurgi would be a god to a god in Greek mythology. "read up on it, the greek gods had gods that they worshiped that humans weren't meant to worship.
As such on your comment on why would such a being deal with humans, well according to the Greeks it didn't, it was simply too far above humanity to be concerned with humanity.

I disagree. Although primarily they are unaware of humanity and most lower level life forms existence in general, there are certain circumstances in which they do become briefly aware of humanity. During times when the forces they represent are out of balance on earth they become aware of our existance, because their essences are concentrated more on Earth than they normally are. Suppose a super-plague were to spread. The energy expended by the plague microbes would cause the demiurgi assosciated with biology would become briefly aware of the existance of earth and its people, but once the super-plague were cured, the energy balances would shift again and they would go back to sleep.

Imagine being bodiless but conscious. Now imagine that your consciousness is spread throughout most of the 16.5 billion light years that make up the universe. You would sleep a lot too.

Still want to know your source for where you picked up the name demiurgi in this context. Its not a common word to come across and I have only three books with it in it, and all three are books on either world mythology or classical mythology and all say the same thing.
the version your speaking of seems to be a derivation on the name to apply to a simular yet different entity "instead of a single entity as in greek myths, in this case it seems to apply to a group"

such an occurance does occure often when beliefs get passed down

for example in Sumeria "Genie" reffered to a lesser god with four wings, bull horns hat, with a magic pinecone and bucket" to the early hebrews and later the Muslums genie became Djinn or Jinn and was thought of as a being of black smokeless fire that wasn't an angel or a demon, but certainly not a god "monotheism wouldn't allow that in their beliefs"
to the Romans however it became Genii "plural" or "Genius" singular. A spirit that stays with a human from birth and can help with intellegence "where he get the word Genius from"

so you see one name can mean more than one thing. and as I had never heard the definition you gave I just want to know where you came across this concept.

interesting though, your demiurgi being concepts would apply to all three of the primordial gods and even to Khaos and Nyx themselves.
All though I think a plague would involve Sylvios and Thanotos directly

forgot something, these three primordial gods are also known by other names in different regions.

Demiurgi is also called Demigorgon.

Sylvios is also called Sol.
and
Thanotos is also called Herodus.

also one last thing 16.5 billion light years barely coveres from here to our third closist star neighbor. let alone the Galaxy or even the Universe even.
any beings capale of even focusing on the whole earth would have to have a conciusness beyond human comprehission. I know in this day and age its easy to try to think of the world as small, but if you were to try and walk in a grid like pattern you would quikly learn before even getting five linear miles that this world is alot bigger than you might think it is.
Now imagine that these beings never sleep that have to look at all this and keep it in balance.

When you are ready to understand me, Rhuen, the information will be revealed to you.

I think there has been some miscommunication somewhere. The demiurgi are more like pylons or energy repositories than actual conscious beings. If it were left to them, the universe would be a mindless morass of unpredictable hyperkinetic chaos. However since Gods exist to express the energies of the Demiurgi at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner, the chaos that lurks just beyond the walls of reality generally stays there, although from time to time there is a crack somewhere and various rare and dangerous events* happen. When all the Gods finally die, and they eventually will, at some point trillenia away from now in time, the walls of the universe will collapse and the Demiurgi will come rushing in like water behind a dam that just got blown up. And that will be the end of our time-line and the return to the primal past. And then of course the process will start over again.

* - supernovae, black holes, thermonuclear explosions, plagues, intergalactic collision, etc.

I mentioned earlier that sometimes, very rarely, the Demiurgi take on an avataric form. Most of the time these forms are mindless expressions of that specific demiurge's domain. However, at about 3 in every 800 septillion, the avatar is conscious enough to be communicated with and expect reasonably intelligent conversation. Of course, since a Demiurge only incarnates on a planet maybe once or twice in the entire multi-millenial history of the planet, you can imagine how long the cycles take for the avatar to be able to form. The odds are so low of ever meeting a conscious avatar that the aspirant would do well to not even bother with it. Unless of course the Aspirant is an Adeptus Majori. In which case if the proper rituals and things are revealed to the aspirant, go for it. But don't expect to get Foucault or Plato for an Avatar.

Well I put aside my old Dictionary of Classical mythology and headed to the library "where I am typing this" couldn't find the name in the current edition of the Classical myths dictionary so I picked up a few more till I found this

Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities
by. Charles Russel Coulter and Patricia Turner
published by: McFarland & Company Inc
ISBN: 0-7864-0317-9

Demiurge (Gnostic)
Also Known as: Metropator
Cheif of the lowest eons. Demiurge is credited with introducing evil into the world. Some Identify him with Jehovah


"it would seem they changed their minds as to what this is from when they wrote the dictionary I own to the latest edition."

But who knows how many versions of this name may exist, after all like I said in a prevoiuse post using Genies as an example one name can mean a whole lot of different things.

EVIL baby! Thats what we stand for! w00t!

I didn't like how short that other definition was so I looked around the library some more till I found a longer one. I think I see now why one "and many on the internet" might think "Demiurge" is a group. He belongs to a group alot like what you descibed "the prioms" more specifically he is an Archon. well the definition I found and the book it came from. I knew about the prioms, but until now the only source for Demiurge I found was from classical mythology, although putting him in this group does make sense. so I never associated him with the prioms.

Angels A to Z
by: James R. Lewis
and
evelyn Dorothy Olive
ISBN: 0-7876-0489-5

Demiurge
The Demiurge is the chief archon (evil spiritual being), who creates the world in the Gnostic system. Gnosticism was a movement and school of thought prominent in the Hellenistic Mediterranean world that influenced paganism, Judaism, and Christianity. According to the Gnostic myth of creation, Sophia one of the good spiritual beings (aeons) residing in the pleroma (the pure spiritual realm), inadvertenly created another entity-often called Yaldabaoth-who created our material world (Robinson, p. 9f). This evil deity, designated Demiurge (a term originally used by Plato in the Timaeus to refer to a demigod who created the world)
"not part of definition=my orginal definition posted was the Plato version:"
"back to book definition"
also created the human body in order to trap human spirits in the physical world. Our true home is the pleroma, however, to which we seek to return even as the archons try to prevent us from doing so.
A standard tenet of Gnostic Christianity was that Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, and the evil Demiurge are one and the same. Pointing to the discrepancy between the jealous, vengeful God of the Old Testament and the teachings of the gentle Jesus, the Gnostics asserted that Jesus was a teacher sent from the pleroma to guide us back to our true home, and that the "Father" to which he referred was different from Yahweh.

from each online encyclopdia is a different post

Demiurge
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The term Demiurge (or Yaldabaoth, Yao, Bythos and several other variants, such as Ptahil used in mandaeanism) is a name given within some belief systems to a deity responsible for the creation of the physical universe and the physical aspect of humanity. The word is derived from the ancient Greek δημιουργός (démiourgos), meaning an artisan or craftsman. (This word in turn comes from δήμιος "official" which in turn comes from δῆμος "people" and έργον meaning "creation" or "piece of work".) The term is used in a number of different religious and philosophical systems, most notably Platonism and Gnosticism. The precise nature and character of the Demiurge however varies considerably, from being the benign architect of matter in some systems, to the personification of evil in others.
Plato refers to the Demiurge frequently in the Timaeus as the entity who "fashioned and shaped" the material world. Plato describes the Demiurge as unreservedly good and hence desirous that the world should be as good as possible. The reason why the world is imperfect is that the Demiurge had to work on pre-existing chaotic matter.
Gnosticism also presents this distinction between the overall "creator" and the Demiurge. However, in contrast to Plato, many systems of Gnostic thought present the Demiurge as being antagonistic to the will of the Supreme Creator, the Demiurge being focused solely on material reality and the "sensuous soul". In this context the Demiurge can be characterised as the "Satan" of Gnostic thought. In the Apocrypphon of John (in the Nag Hammadi collection), the Demiurge is characterised as "Yaltabaoth", who proclaims himself as God:
"Now the archon who is weak has three names. The first name is Yaltabaoth, the second is Saklas, and the third is Samael. And he is impious in his arrogance which is in him. For he said, 'I am God and there is no other God beside me,' for he is ignorant of his strength, the place from which he had come."
"Yaltabaoth" literally means "Go, Child" in Hebrew. Gnostic myth recounts that after Sophia (the Aeon of wisdom, the Demiurge's mother) gave birth to the Demiurge, The Father (the divine source) called her over to him with these words. The Demiurge did not see her, nor anyone else and thus concluded that he was the only being in existence, and that "Yaldaboath" was his name.
"Samael" is the Jewish name for the Angel of Death, as well as the angel that corresponds to the Christian Satan. Literally it means "Blind God". "Saklas" means "fool."

Some Gnostic philosophers (notably Marcion of Sinope) characterise the Demiurge as being Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, in opposition and contrast to the God of the New Testament.
The concept of the Demiurge does not reconcile easily with Christian philosophy. The Platonic interpretation seems to presuppose the pre-existence of matter (in a chaotic form) and this conflicts with the Judeo-Christian concept of an all-powerful creator who fashioned the universe out of nothingness (ex nihilo). While the concept of Satan is well-defined in Christian literature, most Christian theologians reject the notion that Satan (or an equivalent being) could also be the creator of the physical universe, this being the achievement of the Supreme God.

Catholic online encyclopedia
Demiurge
The word means literally a public worker, demioergós, demiourgós, and was originally used to designate any craftsman plying his craft or trade for the use of the public. Soon, however, technítes and other words began to be used to designate the common artisan while demiurge was set aside for the Great Artificer or Fabricator, the Architect of the universe. At first the words toû kósmou were added to distinguish the great Workman from others, but gradually demiourgós became the technical term for the Maker of heaven and earth. In this sense it is used frequently by Plato in his "Timæus". Although often loosely employed by the Fathers and others to indicate the Creator, the word never strictly meant "one who produces out of nothing" (for this the Greeks used ktístes), but only "one who fashions, shapes, and models". A creator in the sense of Christian theology has no place in heathen philosophy, which always presupposes the existence of matter. Moreover, according to Greek philosophy the world-maker is not necessarily identical with God, as first and supreme source of all things; he may be distinct from and inferior to the supreme spirit, though he may also be the practical expression of the reason of God, the Logos as operative in the harmony of the universe. In this sense, i.e. that of a world-maker distinct from the Supreme God, Demiurge became a common term in Gnosticism. The Gnostics, however, were not satisfied merely to emphasize the distinction between the Supreme God, or God the Father, and the Demiurge, but in many of their systems they conceived the relation of the Demiurge to the Supreme God as one of actual antagonism, and the Demiurge became the personification of the power of evil, the Satan of Gnosticism, with whom the faithful had to wage war to the end that they might be pleasing to the Good God. The Gnostic Demiurge then assumes a surprising likeness to Ahriman, the evil counter-creator of Ormuzd in Mazdean philosophy. The character of the Gnostic Demiurge became still more complicated when in some systems he was identified with Jehovah, the God of the Jews or of the Old Testament, and was brought in opposition to Christ of the New Testament, the Only-Begotten Son of the Supreme and Good God. The purpose of Christ's coming as Saviour and Redeemer was to rescue us from the power of the Demiurge, the lord of the world of this darkness, and bring us to the light of the Good God, His Father in heaven. The last development in the character of the Demiurge was due to Jehovah being primarily considered as he who gave the Law on Sinai, and hence as the originator of all restraint on the human will. As the Demiurge was essentially evil, all his work was such; in consequence all law was intrinsically evil and the duty of the children of the Good God was to transgress this law and to trample upon its precepts. This led to the wildest orgies of Antinomian Gnosticism.
According to Valentinus the Demiurge was the offspring of a union of Achamoth (he káta sophía or lower wisdom) with matter. And as Achamoth herself was only the daughter of Sophía the last of the thirty Æons, the Demiurge was distant by many emanations from the Propatôr, or Supreme God. The Demiurge in creating this world out of Chaos was unconsciously influenced for good by Jesus Soter; and the universe, to the surprise even of its Maker, became almost perfect. The Demiurge regretted even its slight imperfection, and as he thought himself the Supreme God, he attempted to remedy this by sending a Messias. To this Messias, however, was actually united Jesus the Saviour, Who redeemed men. These are either hulikoí, or pneumatikoí. The first, or carnal men, will return to the grossness of matter and finally be consumed by fire; the second, or psychic men, together with the Demiurge as their master, will enter a middle state, neither heaven (pleroma) nor hell (hyle); the purely spiritual men will be completely freed from the influence of the Demiurge and together with the Saviour and Achamoth, his spouse, will enter the pleroma divested of body (húle) and soul (psuché). In this most common form of Gnosticism the Demiurge had an inferior though not intrinsically evil function in the universe as the head of the psychic world. According to Marcion, the Demiurge was to be sharply distinguished from the Good God; the former was díkaios, severely just, the latter agathós, or loving-kind; the former was the God of the Jews, the latter the true God of the Christians. Christ, though in reality the Son of the Good God, pretended to be the Messias of the Demiurge, the better to spread the truth concerning His heavenly Father. The true believer in Christ entered into God's kingdom, the unbeliever remained forever the slave of the Demiurge. To this form of Gnosticism, the Demiurge has assumed already a more evil aspect. According to the Naassenes the God of the Jews is not merely díkaios, but he is the great tyrant Jaldabaoth, or Son of Chaos. He is Demiurge and maker of man, but as a ray of light from above enters the body of man and gives him a soul; Jaldabaoth is filled with envy; he tries to limit man's knowledge by forbidding him the fruit of knowledge in paradise. The Demiurge, fearing lest Jesus, whom he had intended as his Messias, should spread the knowledge of the Supreme God, had him crucified by the Jews. At the consummation of all things all light will return to the pleroma; but Jaldabaoth, the Demiurge, with the material world, will be cast into the lower depths. Some of the Ophites or Naassenes venerated all persons reprobated in the Old Testament, such as Cain, or the people of Sodom, as valiant resisters of the Demiurge. In these weird systems the idea of the world-maker was degraded to the uttermost. Amongst the Gnostics, however, who as a rule set some difference between the Demiurge and the Supreme God, there was one exception; for according to the Ebionites, whose opinions have come down to us in the Pseudo-Clementine literature, there is no difference between the Highest God and the Demiurge. They are identical, and the God Who made heaven and earth is worthy of the adoration of men. On the other hand the Gnostic system is tainted with pantheism, and its Demiurge is not a creator but only a world-builder. (See GNOSTICISM; VALENTINUS; MARCION.)

From Alternate religions dictionary
Demiurge (Demiurgos)
Definition: From the Greek, Demiourgos, craftsman. From Plato's Timaeus, the creator of the world. Greek Christian church fathers used the word to describe God as creator; however, the best known usage is by the Gnostics, who used it to refer to the inferior creator of the material world, whom they held as a seperate entity from the supernal deity. The Gnostics called this Demiurge Ialdabaoth; his birth was a consequence of Sophia's wish to create a copy of herself.


due to the fact that Demiurge is a god and not a monster or spirit I will move this thread to Arcane studies so others who are interested specifically in something like this can see it and perhaps comment on it "any one actually part of this Gnostic faith's input would be nice" or has read Platos Timaeus for the version I was origianlly only familiar with.
I will leave a link to this thread in Other Kin as well.

"bumped"

in order to place it closer to the related topic "Sophia".
might just merge them together someday and create a topic about the Archons, Aeons, and other Prioms"

I realize I'm bumping this thread very late, but it's a topic I enjoy coming back to sometimes to refresh my knowledge and sometimes these things (bumps) happen for a reason or in cycles. I feel particularly drawn to knowledge of the Demiurge at the moment, and maybe others do too.

mark your calenders for this day (Sire Necroposted) LoL.

been awhile, and I think the multitudes of definitions I provided chased off the new member who seems to have made up their definition.

I'd like to get some conversation going about expanded theories on the Demiurge.. rather than what's already been theorized by others. Not to dispute what's been written by intelligent people before us, but there's little room for good discussion if no one has an open mind.

One aspect I'd like to explore is learning about it again in increments. I think it's easier for the average reader to digest information in pieces. I need to do it this way for myself, so I haven't even read all the lengthy cut/pasted/typed posts in this thread of that nature. I prefer to do that later after I've done some research for myself first.

Before exploring the Demiurge as the old testament creator god or gods, I'm curious how it compares to the Sumerian epics and in particular of Enki and Enlil, Innanna, Lilith, etc.. Sophia, and how this may fit in. So I'm establishing a timeline in my research at the moment as pre-Demiurge and post-Demiurge.

I'm preferring to do it this way because there's something about a lesser, spiteful deity (demiurge) or possibly alien and/or if the demiurge can fit into play with Spinoza's God somehow. So, I'm in the process of connecting in my own mind first, the concepts whether they fit based on what someone else has already written or not. I need that freedom myself.

Rhuen. Your information is astounding. I did not know that the Greek Gods had gods that They worshipped! Can you provide more information on this? I find it amazing and very logical that They would have Beings even higher than Themselves. I cannot tell you how flooring that revelation is to me! I am currently teaching a young girl the ways of the various Pagan beliefs as well as my strong points (herbs, medicines and such) and I think it is a good idea to have as much knowledge as possible to give to her as well as for my own information.


DO! But like Sire said, in increments. It is easier to absorb the information that way.

well first, Alot of the earlier posts by me include the names, authors, and ISBNs of various books on the topic.

As for gods the Greek gods worshiped. those would be the Primordial gods such as Chaos and Nyx.
There is most notibally Styx (she from whom the river flows) if a God was to make an oath in the name of Styx he or she would be obligated to obey that oath or else face her Wrath.

Styx and Tarturis weren't just location they were actual entities, the ones that created the underworld (remember it existed before Hades got the job of overseeing things down there.)

and there is always the ever fearsome Nyx, even Zeus didn't risk makeing her angry. These types were so high up that the ancient Greek didn't worship them as humans were too far below their notice.
Humans worshiped the gods, who in turn worshiped and revered the primordial gods (those who greatly predated the Titans).