Full Version: Reincarnation - True or False?
Sponsor:
Find Love in the Dark |
Vampire Origins and Secrets |
Gothic Babe of the Week |
Dark Gothic and Horror Links |
Exploitation Films and B-Movies
I'd probably get told off for just rolling my eyes here....I very much doubt that in a past life you would have met anyone you have met in this life...y'see it's about factors...there are over six billion people in the world now...in 1900 there was estimated to be 1.7 billion people...Now say that to that number over 4.3 billion people must be brand new to this world (or there's a very weird system of timeshare)....The likelihood of meeting someone from the old watered down population (considering in your past life you only knew a few of them)...Well you have more chance of giving birth to your own head.
QUOTE (Vore @ Oct 1 2004, 06:36 AM)
I'd probably get told off for just rolling my eyes here....I very much doubt that in a past life you would have met anyone you have met in this life...y'see it's about factors...there are over six billion people in the world now...in 1900 there was estimated to be 1.7 billion people...Now say that to that number over 4.3 billion people must be brand new to this world (or there's a very weird system of timeshare)....The likelihood of meeting someone from the old watered down population (considering in your past life you only knew a few of them)...Well you have more chance of giving birth to your own head.
LOL Vore!!!!
Interesting points Vore.
It would also depend on your social standing in terms of ability to travel, how many people you have contact with ect. After all we really are only a few steps away from meeting many, many people just through having contact with one person.
Good theroy though.
QUOTE (Vore @ Oct 1 2004, 06:36 AM)
I'd probably get told off for just rolling my eyes here....I very much doubt that in a past life you would have met anyone you have met in this life...y'see it's about factors...there are over six billion people in the world now...in 1900 there was estimated to be 1.7 billion people...Now say that to that number over 4.3 billion people must be brand new to this world (or there's a very weird system of timeshare)....The likelihood of meeting someone from the old watered down population (considering in your past life you only knew a few of them)...Well you have more chance of giving birth to your own head.
Now staying with the whole "what ever energy with a consoiusness" thing, lets factor in if the "souls" so to speak, are chaseing each other to the next lifetime so they are born with in close proximity or are unknowenly drawn to each other "which makes more sense for a soul mate" so they are more likely to show up near each other.
of course Vore forgot to factor in something else that makes it more astonishning, since their are more humans now than ever before and even if all the human of the past are reborn as humans that still wouldn't apply to the rest of the population no matter how you add it up. So amongst the billions of humans are the countless other animals or even plants the soul may be born as.
I know of stories were a soul of an animal was reborn as a human and made the life a living hell for the reincarnation of the person who had hunted them for sport in a prevoius life. Of course thats a legend, but it still makes for an intersting figure.
Rhuen makes good points here. Reincarnation isn't just about starting from scratch...you carry with you luggage every round. Encountering people from your past lives isn't coincidental, it's usually issues you never got resolved last round, that has weighed on your soul. This is why I believe suicide is a lousy way out, you can't solve your problems by running away from them. They will keep returning until you've worked through them properly, and often grow in intensity each time.
The amount of people in the world doesn't really apply here, anymore than the population of China has any influence on your local busline.
The amount of people in the world doesn't really apply here, anymore than the population of China has any influence on your local busline.
I love the way anyone saying anything in favour of past lives is 'wise'...I would be most interested to learn where the learned ones got their great knowledge of the Unknown from...
Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?
People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question? What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?
People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question? What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
I don't think anyone here deemed themself "wise"...just like you know, for a fact, that there is no afterlife, based on your observations and experiences, we know there is, based on our observations and experiences.
As for me, I didn't just choose this belief because it sounded appealing. Granted, as with every faith, a certain base of choice is present, but you can't base belief on that alone. That would be too gullible. You need to read up on things a little, make a concious, logical decision as to why you feel this theory is more reliable than other theories.
Presuming without basis...what would you know about that? Have you read all there is to read in this area, or are you just assuming we haven't? I'm curious as to how you feel that statement is justified...
However. There has been countless records of children recalling lives they otherwise have no way of knowing about. Lives their parents has no way of knowing about, and thus they can't influate the child. Of course, some might be explained away as clever hauxes, but not all. There's a difference between naturally sceptic, and closed to all other options...
I could give you examples, if you wish, of witness accounts. Just give the word.
In addition to this, I go by personal experience. Now this you can easily denounce, by calling it wishful thinking and self-deluding. That's fine with me, I don't need reassurements from others for my belief. I know myself what I've experienced, and I know how past lives has affected my present life. Phobias, fears, certain quirks and oddities may just as well be a result of traumatic experiences in a past life. Like my inability to put my head under water without panicking, even in the shower. Like how my close childhood friend is unable to wear scarves, turtlenecks, or other tight things around her neck without feeling choked. Like my mothers fixation with knowing where all her belongings are at any given time. There are a lot of little things like that, that has no obvious rational reason in this life, unless you really try looking and thinking up scenarios. Given the available information, I'd say my scenario is just as likely as yours.
"There's always a next time" isn't a very good way of dealing with things. Like I already said, I think, by ignoring or attemting to escape your problems, they'll just grow bigger in your abscence. Of course, anyonme is free to try, but I wouldn't suggest it, you'll have to face the consequences of your action at some point, be it in this life or the next. Of course, this is just my belief.
As for me, I didn't just choose this belief because it sounded appealing. Granted, as with every faith, a certain base of choice is present, but you can't base belief on that alone. That would be too gullible. You need to read up on things a little, make a concious, logical decision as to why you feel this theory is more reliable than other theories.
Presuming without basis...what would you know about that? Have you read all there is to read in this area, or are you just assuming we haven't? I'm curious as to how you feel that statement is justified...
However. There has been countless records of children recalling lives they otherwise have no way of knowing about. Lives their parents has no way of knowing about, and thus they can't influate the child. Of course, some might be explained away as clever hauxes, but not all. There's a difference between naturally sceptic, and closed to all other options...
I could give you examples, if you wish, of witness accounts. Just give the word.
In addition to this, I go by personal experience. Now this you can easily denounce, by calling it wishful thinking and self-deluding. That's fine with me, I don't need reassurements from others for my belief. I know myself what I've experienced, and I know how past lives has affected my present life. Phobias, fears, certain quirks and oddities may just as well be a result of traumatic experiences in a past life. Like my inability to put my head under water without panicking, even in the shower. Like how my close childhood friend is unable to wear scarves, turtlenecks, or other tight things around her neck without feeling choked. Like my mothers fixation with knowing where all her belongings are at any given time. There are a lot of little things like that, that has no obvious rational reason in this life, unless you really try looking and thinking up scenarios. Given the available information, I'd say my scenario is just as likely as yours.
"There's always a next time" isn't a very good way of dealing with things. Like I already said, I think, by ignoring or attemting to escape your problems, they'll just grow bigger in your abscence. Of course, anyonme is free to try, but I wouldn't suggest it, you'll have to face the consequences of your action at some point, be it in this life or the next. Of course, this is just my belief.
I could try and compress Kant but I can't (can't Kant ha ha erm yes)...so here is my source http://eserver.org/philosophy/kant/critique-of-judgment.txt read it at your peril...
It talks about how we percieve truths. Very simplisticaly...the 'a priori' jargon can be defined thusly
The opposite being the building up of knowledge through observable empirical means....a priori or 'pure reasoning alone' deals only with concepts that are supposedly seperate from personal past experiences and are grounded in rationality.
It is neither rational nore empirical to state that you beLIEve in reincarnation (to borrow a spelling from one of this sites philosophers) by basing your opinions on things you have neither observed nore rationalised. If your evidence comes from a valid source (validity being very much a personal deduction based mostly on a priori standpoints) then you are still only expressing a loose concept that though interesting to talk about has all the real solidity of a clockwork spam tank.
The 'available information' as you call it...is no such thing...it is available concepts in which you are dealing and not information. I on the other hand can tell you the exact observed and easily analysed chemical/mathmatical/physical facts of human mortality....the blood, bone and dirt that these become.
These are not pleasing terms to people who are trying to lift themselves above the dirt due to pretentions of being more important than it in the running of the universe but there is nothing logical or rational in this.
Observe that carrots grow...spread seeds and die...they rot and yes...continuation occurs through seed and fertile soil...made fertile by carrots that are now dirt....This is the process of all life from carrot to Eagle to Skunk...life dies and through dieing changes and adapts...reincarnation is against every observable natural law....so how exactly does this fall side by side in validity with what may seem the stark realities of death?
When I was seven I could talk about the mesopotamians none stop for days if I'd wanted to and would have claimed myself a reincarnated wise man of this day if anyone had asked...fortunately they did not and nobody discovered how much of a closet geek i was.
It talks about how we percieve truths. Very simplisticaly...the 'a priori' jargon can be defined thusly
QUOTE
In a sentence, a priori truths are those that are knowable on the basis of reflection alone (independent of experience) by anyone who has acquired the relevant concepts.?
The opposite being the building up of knowledge through observable empirical means....a priori or 'pure reasoning alone' deals only with concepts that are supposedly seperate from personal past experiences and are grounded in rationality.
It is neither rational nore empirical to state that you beLIEve in reincarnation (to borrow a spelling from one of this sites philosophers) by basing your opinions on things you have neither observed nore rationalised. If your evidence comes from a valid source (validity being very much a personal deduction based mostly on a priori standpoints) then you are still only expressing a loose concept that though interesting to talk about has all the real solidity of a clockwork spam tank.
The 'available information' as you call it...is no such thing...it is available concepts in which you are dealing and not information. I on the other hand can tell you the exact observed and easily analysed chemical/mathmatical/physical facts of human mortality....the blood, bone and dirt that these become.
These are not pleasing terms to people who are trying to lift themselves above the dirt due to pretentions of being more important than it in the running of the universe but there is nothing logical or rational in this.
Observe that carrots grow...spread seeds and die...they rot and yes...continuation occurs through seed and fertile soil...made fertile by carrots that are now dirt....This is the process of all life from carrot to Eagle to Skunk...life dies and through dieing changes and adapts...reincarnation is against every observable natural law....so how exactly does this fall side by side in validity with what may seem the stark realities of death?
When I was seven I could talk about the mesopotamians none stop for days if I'd wanted to and would have claimed myself a reincarnated wise man of this day if anyone had asked...fortunately they did not and nobody discovered how much of a closet geek i was.
[/QUOTE]
what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
QUOTE (Vore @ Oct 4 2004, 12:20 AM)
I love the way anyone saying anything in favour of past lives is 'wise'...I would be most interested to learn where the learned ones got their great knowledge of the Unknown from...
A passionate responce I see. some would take offence to this. but instead I will answer. not as a learned one but as a student. Walk the void. see into its emptyness. learn of its hidden secrets. you are a sorcer/magi of sorts as you have claimed. study the unknown as scientist does. starting with nothing but a hypothosist then build upon it finding the lost truth.Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?
QUOTE
A passionate responce I see. some would take offence to this. but instead I will answer. not as a learned one but as a student. Walk the void. see into its emptyness. learn of its hidden secrets. you are a sorcer/magi of sorts as you have claimed. study the unknown as scientist does. starting with nothing but a hypothosist then build upon it finding the lost truth.
QUOTE
look at a picture as a detective would in a case. do not detectives obtain knowledge from that glimps of the recient past they are investigating. so are the dreams and rememberances of our lifes pasts.
People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question?QUOTE
how am I presuming. I do have a basis, weither you believe it or not. not everything can be proven through philisophical scientific logical deduction. the church has proven that theology can not always work side by side with philosophy. nore can science with magic (wisdom) spiritual understanding and enlightenment does not derive from a science lab. no matter how much an acid head begs to differ.
What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...QUOTE
the end result of our spirtual path through time is up to us. choices we make can only lead to new alternatives. the past lives are clues of doorways already taken. advisory of things to do and not to do. and insight into human responces and passions. the understanding and clerification of desires we may have. would it not be a good thing to know before you do something that is may be a bad choice. some times the simple is more plausable then the science. you have every right not to beleive us. but please do not challange us with such scorn. or it would seem to us as scorn by the way you pressent your arguments with such "Passion"
If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
[quote=Night Eagle,Oct 4 2004, 09:49 PM]
[/QUOTE]Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question?What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
[/quote]
what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
[/quote]
You make many many suppositions upon my view but few on your own..stick to expousing your own views and not telling me what I believe eh lad...
I start from the basis of an open mind...not a concept I wish to prove...as I said in the proof thread...I question most those things I wish to believe...where you seek to support your own beliefs with more and more levels of circular arguement in which you only preach about what you think is this and what you think is that...try instead to analyse your own evidence...You speak about science as if you've no grasp of it...for science is not a limiting structure...it is a tool of procedural, logical information and fact finding that allows us to see what lies behind our much loved concepts.
Science simply says 'look closer'...don't keep repeating the same old mantras of supposed 'wisdom'...wisdom is a useless catchword when applied to things that are not wise but are merely towers of false logic built around a belief people don't want to step back from.
I do not disbelieve in the possibility of reincarnation...but the fact simply 'is' that nobody has provided a solid case of evidence for it...if they wish to beLIEve it then they may do so...but to condemn others to their version of truth without a justification is the exact mistake and removal of choice that is made by religion.
You say the Church has proven anything? I say they have not...and I say what is more that the Pope at the head of the church is the very symbol of man's inability to go by the words of their own holy books 'Thou shalt not worship a false God....Thou shalt not worship a graven image' Both these things are done through the cross and through the pope...but that is for a wholey seperate debate.
Your talk of 'walking the void' and all that claptrap is very poetic and pleasing...they use that talk to brainwash the poor sods who sit through hours worth of sermons containing such meaningless stuff...I deal with specifics...not crass generalisations and hocus pocus buzzwords. My magic is no magic at all...it the wonderously complex and simple process of cause and effect...something I can hold up to a child and explain in words they can really understand...Children come up with concepts like reincarnation because they are not old enough to deal with the more troubling certainty of death.
If you wish to have a constructive arguement tell me the process by which reincarnation occurs and how you know this seeing as you can't see the process happen from an unobjective view.
[/QUOTE]Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question?What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
[/quote]
what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
[/quote]
You make many many suppositions upon my view but few on your own..stick to expousing your own views and not telling me what I believe eh lad...
I start from the basis of an open mind...not a concept I wish to prove...as I said in the proof thread...I question most those things I wish to believe...where you seek to support your own beliefs with more and more levels of circular arguement in which you only preach about what you think is this and what you think is that...try instead to analyse your own evidence...You speak about science as if you've no grasp of it...for science is not a limiting structure...it is a tool of procedural, logical information and fact finding that allows us to see what lies behind our much loved concepts.
Science simply says 'look closer'...don't keep repeating the same old mantras of supposed 'wisdom'...wisdom is a useless catchword when applied to things that are not wise but are merely towers of false logic built around a belief people don't want to step back from.
I do not disbelieve in the possibility of reincarnation...but the fact simply 'is' that nobody has provided a solid case of evidence for it...if they wish to beLIEve it then they may do so...but to condemn others to their version of truth without a justification is the exact mistake and removal of choice that is made by religion.
You say the Church has proven anything? I say they have not...and I say what is more that the Pope at the head of the church is the very symbol of man's inability to go by the words of their own holy books 'Thou shalt not worship a false God....Thou shalt not worship a graven image' Both these things are done through the cross and through the pope...but that is for a wholey seperate debate.
Your talk of 'walking the void' and all that claptrap is very poetic and pleasing...they use that talk to brainwash the poor sods who sit through hours worth of sermons containing such meaningless stuff...I deal with specifics...not crass generalisations and hocus pocus buzzwords. My magic is no magic at all...it the wonderously complex and simple process of cause and effect...something I can hold up to a child and explain in words they can really understand...Children come up with concepts like reincarnation because they are not old enough to deal with the more troubling certainty of death.
If you wish to have a constructive arguement tell me the process by which reincarnation occurs and how you know this seeing as you can't see the process happen from an unobjective view.
[quote=Vore,Oct 4 2004, 10:39 PM]
Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question?What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
[/quote]
what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
[/quote]
You make many many suppositions upon my view but few on your own..stick to expousing your own views and not telling me what I believe eh lad...
I start from the basis of an open mind...not a concept I wish to prove...as I said in the proof thread...I question most those things I wish to believe...where you seek to support your own beliefs with more and more levels of circular arguement in which you only preach about what you think is this and what you think is that...try instead to analyse your own evidence...You speak about science as if you've no grasp of it...for science is not a limiting structure...it is a tool of procedural, logical information and fact finding that allows us to see what lies behind our much loved concepts.
Science simply says 'look closer'...don't keep repeating the same old mantras of supposed 'wisdom'...wisdom is a useless catchword when applied to things that are not wise but are merely towers of false logic built around a belief people don't want to step back from.
I do not disbelieve in the possibility of reincarnation...but the fact simply 'is' that nobody has provided a solid case of evidence for it...if they wish to beLIEve it then they may do so...but to condemn others to their version of truth without a justification is the exact mistake and removal of choice that is made by religion.
You say the Church has proven anything? I say they have not...and I say what is more that the Pope at the head of the church is the very symbol of man's inability to go by the words of their own holy books 'Thou shalt not worship a false God....Thou shalt not worship a graven image' Both these things are done through the cross and through the pope...but that is for a wholey seperate debate.
Your talk of 'walking the void' and all that claptrap is very poetic and pleasing...they use that talk to brainwash the poor sods who sit through hours worth of sermons containing such meaningless stuff...I deal with specifics...not crass generalisations and hocus pocus buzzwords. My magic is no magic at all...it the wonderously complex and simple process of cause and effect...something I can hold up to a child and explain in words they can really understand...Children come up with concepts like reincarnation because they are not old enough to deal with the more troubling certainty of death.
If you wish to have a constructive arguement tell me the process by which reincarnation occurs and how you know this seeing as you can't see the process happen from an unobjective view.
[/quote]
science need physical, mathmatical proof. reicarnation has no such proof. what sort of proof do you desire to hear besides the hearsay and personal experience which is also hearsay. nothing spiritual can be proven scientificaly fully. how does one exspect to prove past lives through science. you desire evidance. what sort of evidance. you speek yet disbeleive in the unknown blocks the truth. how can one explain anything to you. when you demand mathmatical scientific proof. this is something one can not exspect to obtain from this realm of research.
so please do not argue something that con not be proven to your satifation. somethings are unexplainable by science. that is something few scientist have learn to eccept. but if you are going to passionately respond to these subjects. understand what is behind the beleifs.
you challange me to tell you from my view through my experiences. first off
past lives are a personal expearience that should not be flashed about. there are very few people I know I have even so much as told part of them.
just like a vision quest when one takes time alone to fast and seek guidence from the spirits. what you learn there is for you and no one else. it is all for self enlightenment. sometimes over time you may ahve the opportunity to teach others from your prior experience.
your prior experience tends to be taught in metaphores. through this the student learns but listening within and expanding there reasoning. analogy and metaphores is a kind of logic ancient logic excersize.
you can had some one a loaf of bread and they will return the next day to aquire more. or you can teach them how to grow there own wheat and make there own bread. then they will forever be fed.
walk your road of cause and effect. black and white book logic. while I will walk mine. you have choosen your road as I have choosen mine.
just remember sometimes the answer is hidden within the words. listen and mayhaps you will hear the truth. ;-)
not everything is perfectly defined within the box created by science. there is a world outside of the box one should explore. its a different kind of science with a different kind of approach.
respond as you wish, and argue passionately as you may. I need not prove anything to you. just help those who desire help.
Even if past lives are real...How exactly are people extracting a reason and some sort of mechanism from something so completely obscure?People are talking about past lives being lessons...Why should you say this? You're presuming rather a lot without basis...And need I ask the question?What exactly are all our lives leading up to if they are supposedly training us to be better and better at being...us? Good? Random?...If reality was really like the film 'Groundhog Day' then surely someone with true courage in their convictions would never need to worry about mistakes because 'there's always a next time'.....I do not see anyone applying this...so I'm certain that those expostulating such opinions are just doing so for the hell of it.
[/quote]
what would you learn if you flitted about not caring. for if each time you did not care. you would again destroy yourself. each time you lived a life you would learn nothing. because why care since there is always a next time. that mindset is not a contructive way of thinging. it may be logical at first and seeming valid. yet it lacks any fruitful results. if you wish walk that road. I inturn will walk mine.
you can argue with me till your blue in the face. but how can one show some one a picture if the other person is not willing to look. it is your right not to agree with our beliefs but please do not question it with your passionate seeming logical reasoning. that at this point has no foundation besides disbelief as its basis. if you do beleive in past lives. then please clarify for at this moment it would seem that you do not.
[/quote]
You make many many suppositions upon my view but few on your own..stick to expousing your own views and not telling me what I believe eh lad...
I start from the basis of an open mind...not a concept I wish to prove...as I said in the proof thread...I question most those things I wish to believe...where you seek to support your own beliefs with more and more levels of circular arguement in which you only preach about what you think is this and what you think is that...try instead to analyse your own evidence...You speak about science as if you've no grasp of it...for science is not a limiting structure...it is a tool of procedural, logical information and fact finding that allows us to see what lies behind our much loved concepts.
Science simply says 'look closer'...don't keep repeating the same old mantras of supposed 'wisdom'...wisdom is a useless catchword when applied to things that are not wise but are merely towers of false logic built around a belief people don't want to step back from.
I do not disbelieve in the possibility of reincarnation...but the fact simply 'is' that nobody has provided a solid case of evidence for it...if they wish to beLIEve it then they may do so...but to condemn others to their version of truth without a justification is the exact mistake and removal of choice that is made by religion.
You say the Church has proven anything? I say they have not...and I say what is more that the Pope at the head of the church is the very symbol of man's inability to go by the words of their own holy books 'Thou shalt not worship a false God....Thou shalt not worship a graven image' Both these things are done through the cross and through the pope...but that is for a wholey seperate debate.
Your talk of 'walking the void' and all that claptrap is very poetic and pleasing...they use that talk to brainwash the poor sods who sit through hours worth of sermons containing such meaningless stuff...I deal with specifics...not crass generalisations and hocus pocus buzzwords. My magic is no magic at all...it the wonderously complex and simple process of cause and effect...something I can hold up to a child and explain in words they can really understand...Children come up with concepts like reincarnation because they are not old enough to deal with the more troubling certainty of death.
If you wish to have a constructive arguement tell me the process by which reincarnation occurs and how you know this seeing as you can't see the process happen from an unobjective view.
[/quote]
science need physical, mathmatical proof. reicarnation has no such proof. what sort of proof do you desire to hear besides the hearsay and personal experience which is also hearsay. nothing spiritual can be proven scientificaly fully. how does one exspect to prove past lives through science. you desire evidance. what sort of evidance. you speek yet disbeleive in the unknown blocks the truth. how can one explain anything to you. when you demand mathmatical scientific proof. this is something one can not exspect to obtain from this realm of research.
so please do not argue something that con not be proven to your satifation. somethings are unexplainable by science. that is something few scientist have learn to eccept. but if you are going to passionately respond to these subjects. understand what is behind the beleifs.
you challange me to tell you from my view through my experiences. first off
past lives are a personal expearience that should not be flashed about. there are very few people I know I have even so much as told part of them.
just like a vision quest when one takes time alone to fast and seek guidence from the spirits. what you learn there is for you and no one else. it is all for self enlightenment. sometimes over time you may ahve the opportunity to teach others from your prior experience.
your prior experience tends to be taught in metaphores. through this the student learns but listening within and expanding there reasoning. analogy and metaphores is a kind of logic ancient logic excersize.
you can had some one a loaf of bread and they will return the next day to aquire more. or you can teach them how to grow there own wheat and make there own bread. then they will forever be fed.
walk your road of cause and effect. black and white book logic. while I will walk mine. you have choosen your road as I have choosen mine.
just remember sometimes the answer is hidden within the words. listen and mayhaps you will hear the truth. ;-)
not everything is perfectly defined within the box created by science. there is a world outside of the box one should explore. its a different kind of science with a different kind of approach.
respond as you wish, and argue passionately as you may. I need not prove anything to you. just help those who desire help.
QUOTE
science need physical, mathmatical proof. reicarnation has no such proof. hearsay hearsay. nothing spiritual can be proven. How does one exspect to prove past lives through science(?) you desire evidance. what sort of evidance(?) you speek yet disbeleive in the unknown blocks the 'truth' (the truth of hearsay?). how can one explain anything to you(?) when you demand mathmatical scientific proof. this is something one can not exspect to obtain from this realm of research.
so please do not argue something that con not be proven to your satifation. somethings are unexplainable by science. that is something few scientist have learn to eccept. but if you are going to passionately respond to these subjects. understand what is behind the beleifs. (hearsay?)
you challange me to tell you from my view through my experiences. first off
past lives are a personal expearience that should not be flashed about. there are very few people I know I have even so much as told part of them. (because you are afraid they will think you jest made it all up? No...you don't say!)
just like a vision quest when one takes time alone to fast and seek guidence from the spirits. what you learn there is for you and no one else. it is all for self enlightenment. sometimes over time you may ahve the opportunity to teach others from your prior experience. (enlightenment ah ha ha...I have a friend who fasts and does vision quests...he's also been in the nutthouse reguraly and is on medication)
your prior experience tends to be taught in metaphores. through this the student learns but listening within and expanding there reasoning. analogy and metaphores is a kind of logic ancient logic excersize. (wrong...metaphore is used to create generalised examples of things that are best simplified for understanding...but are only used when there is not time to look more in depth..good teachers do not use metaphore alone because it is mostly guesswork on the part of the student.)
you can had some one a loaf of bread and they will return the next day to aquire more. or you can teach them how to grow there own wheat and make there own bread. then they will forever be fed. (this is a cliche taken from a number of religious texts and a well known charity advert it is called a truism...in that it is easily stated by those who have never at any point actualy applied it themselves.)
walk your road of cause and effect. black and white book logic. while I will walk mine. you have choosen your road as I have choosen mine. (I don't use black and white book logic...there are no boundries in science or philosophy not known to be created and defined by men...as such there is no black and white and no boundries to the knowledge we can gain....and as for cause and effect...you know nothing of this so shush..unless you care to underline chaos theory and the nature of entanglement and supertrings)
just remember sometimes the answer is hidden within the words. listen and mayhaps you will hear the truth. ;-)
(you presume to know the truth I take it? Remember what I said about hypocracy when you stated that I was egocentric?)
not everything is perfectly defined within the box created by science. (as I have already stated...science creates defenitions not limitation...there is no box when you are dealing with infinity and chaos on a day to day basis)
there is a world outside of the box one should explore. its a different kind of science with a different kind of approach. (wrong the world you are exploring is the internal world of beliefs...and though we spend all our lives within the confines of our own minds nobody is stupid enough to believe that when they die reality ceases to exist...reality is seperate from our personal views)
respond as you wish, and argue passionately as you may. I need not prove anything to you.
so please do not argue something that con not be proven to your satifation. somethings are unexplainable by science. that is something few scientist have learn to eccept. but if you are going to passionately respond to these subjects. understand what is behind the beleifs. (hearsay?)
you challange me to tell you from my view through my experiences. first off
past lives are a personal expearience that should not be flashed about. there are very few people I know I have even so much as told part of them. (because you are afraid they will think you jest made it all up? No...you don't say!)
just like a vision quest when one takes time alone to fast and seek guidence from the spirits. what you learn there is for you and no one else. it is all for self enlightenment. sometimes over time you may ahve the opportunity to teach others from your prior experience. (enlightenment ah ha ha...I have a friend who fasts and does vision quests...he's also been in the nutthouse reguraly and is on medication)
your prior experience tends to be taught in metaphores. through this the student learns but listening within and expanding there reasoning. analogy and metaphores is a kind of logic ancient logic excersize. (wrong...metaphore is used to create generalised examples of things that are best simplified for understanding...but are only used when there is not time to look more in depth..good teachers do not use metaphore alone because it is mostly guesswork on the part of the student.)
you can had some one a loaf of bread and they will return the next day to aquire more. or you can teach them how to grow there own wheat and make there own bread. then they will forever be fed. (this is a cliche taken from a number of religious texts and a well known charity advert it is called a truism...in that it is easily stated by those who have never at any point actualy applied it themselves.)
walk your road of cause and effect. black and white book logic. while I will walk mine. you have choosen your road as I have choosen mine. (I don't use black and white book logic...there are no boundries in science or philosophy not known to be created and defined by men...as such there is no black and white and no boundries to the knowledge we can gain....and as for cause and effect...you know nothing of this so shush..unless you care to underline chaos theory and the nature of entanglement and supertrings)
just remember sometimes the answer is hidden within the words. listen and mayhaps you will hear the truth. ;-)
(you presume to know the truth I take it? Remember what I said about hypocracy when you stated that I was egocentric?)
not everything is perfectly defined within the box created by science. (as I have already stated...science creates defenitions not limitation...there is no box when you are dealing with infinity and chaos on a day to day basis)
there is a world outside of the box one should explore. its a different kind of science with a different kind of approach. (wrong the world you are exploring is the internal world of beliefs...and though we spend all our lives within the confines of our own minds nobody is stupid enough to believe that when they die reality ceases to exist...reality is seperate from our personal views)
respond as you wish, and argue passionately as you may. I need not prove anything to you.
You said it all yourself pretty much...you have no proof...only beliefs...and as you feel that you need not provide proof (even if you had any which you say you don't) then there is no point you even bothering to post a responce to me because you can't have a reasonable debate based on absence of any form of proof.
I hold up my magnifying glass as usual and say 'Come...look for yourself and see'
And you say 'No...I shun your science...I will sit here and tell you what I believe to be 'true'
Neither of us gain from this....I respect that you are comfortable with your beliefs...but cannot afford them any validity based soley on them being 'your beliefs'...and you see that we follow different ways...yet cannot see that my way does not exclude yours...it only awaits a theory and a cogent arguement.
Deja Vue of the Reincarnation thread from off-topic so long ago. As I re-call this thread was listed as "not to argue reincarnation" but to "discuss" ones "beliefs" on the subject now every newbie with a belief in reincarnation is afraid to post because of the long drawn out arguments going on. Just agree to disagree as both sides come down to "beliefs" you can't prove reincarnation anymore than you can dis-proove it no matter what happens to the physical body after we die. So all we get it a long drawn out game of ring around the rosie till we all fall down of exhaustion.
so lets leave it at that and return to people's "beliefs as a discussion" and not a push and pull "I am right, No I am right, no I am right" argument.
edit: thought after reading all that I was in the reincarnation thread, going to leave that anyway. This thread was asking how to clear a past life debt. It was asked in a way anouncing already believing in a past life and as such was targeted to people who feel the same.
so lets leave it at that and return to people's "beliefs as a discussion" and not a push and pull "I am right, No I am right, no I am right" argument.
edit: thought after reading all that I was in the reincarnation thread, going to leave that anyway. This thread was asking how to clear a past life debt. It was asked in a way anouncing already believing in a past life and as such was targeted to people who feel the same.
My side does not come down to beliefs Rhuen....My 'side' is not a side at all it is the approach of imagination that does not reject logic and observation as primary tools for discovery of the truth.....not a personal (bullshit) truth but a generalisable...grounded in the weird and wonderful real world truth.
Beliefs are only needed by those who have not taken the trouble to actualy find something out...I hold no beliefs that I cannot quantify to myself...you may consider this to be a not very fun way of thinking...but the truth is not about fun (although you would know if you saw science passionately that it is more awe inspiring than anything conjured up by casual dreamers)..
I do not deal in self delusions and do not have any interest in playing Top Trumps with those of others.
This is not the poetry section...here is the domain of facts...not dreamed up colourful creations of pure imagination.
Beliefs are only needed by those who have not taken the trouble to actualy find something out...I hold no beliefs that I cannot quantify to myself...you may consider this to be a not very fun way of thinking...but the truth is not about fun (although you would know if you saw science passionately that it is more awe inspiring than anything conjured up by casual dreamers)..
I do not deal in self delusions and do not have any interest in playing Top Trumps with those of others.
This is not the poetry section...here is the domain of facts...not dreamed up colourful creations of pure imagination.
Not to argue, but life's too short to be logical in my opinion.
But in defense of Reincarntation, what about all those people that can recall a past life, so explicitly, although they could never know. And young children who say things which they don't think mean much!
My sister once woke me up at 12-3am, can't remember exactly, but when i went into her room, after her calling me for ages, although she was asleep, when she felt my presence I guess, she said, ' I've come back to my new body now...'
Scary, especially since she was like 9 at the time!
But in defense of Reincarntation, what about all those people that can recall a past life, so explicitly, although they could never know. And young children who say things which they don't think mean much!
My sister once woke me up at 12-3am, can't remember exactly, but when i went into her room, after her calling me for ages, although she was asleep, when she felt my presence I guess, she said, ' I've come back to my new body now...'
Scary, especially since she was like 9 at the time!
QUOTE (Sara- Arlette @ Oct 6 2004, 06:47 PM)
Not to argue, but life's too short to be logical in my opinion.
But in defense of Reincarntation, what about all those people that can recall a past life, so explicitly, although they could never know. And young children who say things which they don't think mean much!
My sister once woke me up at 12-3am, can't remember exactly, but when i went into her room, after her calling me for ages, although she was asleep, when she felt my presence I guess, she said, ' I've come back to my new body now...'
Scary, especially since she was like 9 at the time!
But in defense of Reincarntation, what about all those people that can recall a past life, so explicitly, although they could never know. And young children who say things which they don't think mean much!
My sister once woke me up at 12-3am, can't remember exactly, but when i went into her room, after her calling me for ages, although she was asleep, when she felt my presence I guess, she said, ' I've come back to my new body now...'
Scary, especially since she was like 9 at the time!
I said stuff far weirder than that when I was nine...in fact I wrote myself a note when I was seven explaining to my future self that I was quite intelligent and that I should not forget how clever and evil seven year olds can be...because I had noticed how so called 'grown ups' look down on children with too great an ease...and I'm 21 now...and if I hadn't written that note I would have forgotten that I was pretty much as clever then as I am now. (whether that is very clever or not I'm not qualified to say)
The first thing you stated above about life being too short for logic is exactly why illogical people shouldn't try to join in with complicated debates about truth....if you really don't care whether stuff is true or not good for you...but stop trying to tell thinkers they're better off not thinking...it's a very cruel thing to do when thinkers try everything including heavy drinking and headbanging to try and stop the damn sodding thoughts from coming.
I didn't mean it like that! Sorry that you took offense, and I do think! That's one of the reason I'm screwed up though! *I* think too much! Everyone's different! And i am pretty logical! I'm stupid but logical!
It depends I suppose on how you see things... But that was My view. I never told you to stop thinking!
It depends I suppose on how you see things... But that was My view. I never told you to stop thinking!
*sigh* you misunderstand me....I perfectly agreed with your first statement...life is too short to be concerned about anything other than where the next food/sex/shelter comes from....
I was just saying that the irony of the thinker is that most of the time like you and me...they really rather wish they were as thoughtless and placid as a Moose.
It is for that reason that thinkers don't like meeting people who don't think very much....they get reminded that ignorance is bliss and are driven to either forcing the none-thinker to share in the pain of too much thought or in drowning their own thoughts in drink.
I was just saying that the irony of the thinker is that most of the time like you and me...they really rather wish they were as thoughtless and placid as a Moose.
It is for that reason that thinkers don't like meeting people who don't think very much....they get reminded that ignorance is bliss and are driven to either forcing the none-thinker to share in the pain of too much thought or in drowning their own thoughts in drink.
OK-Now for another brainteaser.....
What if groups of people scattered over the world shared a common oversoul? There are more of you here and now experiencing the world from their perspective just like you are now...
What if groups of people scattered over the world shared a common oversoul? There are more of you here and now experiencing the world from their perspective just like you are now...
QUOTE (Invisigoth @ Oct 10 2004, 08:46 PM)
OK-Now for another brainteaser.....
What if groups of people scattered over the world shared a common oversoul? There are more of you here and now experiencing the world from their perspective just like you are now...
What if groups of people scattered over the world shared a common oversoul? There are more of you here and now experiencing the world from their perspective just like you are now...
What if cows could breath underwater and fire lasers?
Woah, I am getting a brain headache...just kidding. I don't know too much on the scientific end of reincarnation although certain time periods give me a sence of nostalgia. I am certainly drawn to certain things although other than some wierd dreams, I don't really have any "proof" of reincarnation. I am however most interested.
QUOTE (redragon926 @ Oct 11 2004, 05:51 PM)
Woah, I am getting a brain headache...just kidding. I don't know too much on the scientific end of reincarnation although certain time periods give me a sence of nostalgia. I am certainly drawn to certain things although other than some wierd dreams, I don't really have any "proof" of reincarnation. I am however most interested.
Interest in reincarnation is the first stage of belief in it...beware...
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.