Tell us anything you would consider 'proof' of the existance of any disputed arcane/supernatural occurance...

No second hand stories please.

No heresay or simple superstition without a solid basis in facts.

There are many here very good at scrying through bullshit so don't even try it.

is psi supernatural?
well if it is, I weigh about 2kg more with my psi shields on :D

I have had many such occurances. but I have a feeling you would argue and try to discredit what I would have to say. it seems to be a hoby of yours. so I have nothing to say here. well at leas tnot for your benifit.

Are you more asking what I consider proof or are you wanting me to jump through your hoops and show you what you would consider proof?

If the latter, what do you mean exactly by the following:

"proof" "superstition" "supernatural" "arcane" "solid basis in facts"

I don't see how any fruitful conversation could proceed without this first.

Take care.

I'm gonna bite.

I am going to give you a few examples of phychic and ghost experiences I've had. I'm going to just breifly outline them as not to get too lengthy.

- I hadn't seen my dad in nearly 10 years. He telephoned one night. I read the words in my head (it was like a black chalkboard withwritting on it) it said 'He;s comnig to see you in a few weeks. He telephoned 6 weeks later and said I'll be by in 30 mintues. FYI my dad lives 1,500 miles away.

- Same chalk board like thing. I hadn't seen my old boyfriend in nearly two years. I was driving with my new bf at the time and I read the words '*incert x bf name here* suicide. 6 weeks later he killed himself. Keep in mind I hadn't spoken to any mutal friends in over a year. I had NO WAY of knowing.

- A man showed up at the bottom of the stairs, I could see him clear as day. A few years later I was with my grandfather... he brought down some old photos of family I had asked to see. I was curious about doing a family tree... there was this guy... same guy from the stairs. Turns out it was my grandfather brother who had died in WW2. I had neverseen the photos before or a picture of him.

- Three mother after my greatgrandmother died. I saw her at the bottom of my mother bed. It took me forever to figure out it was her as she looked 20 years younger than when she died.

Vore,

May people would say this was coincidence. I, at one time, would have been right there with you. Save for one problem. After thousands of experiences like this and weirder (way weirder these are nothing in comparision.) I have to seriously ask myself at what point does it stop being a mere coincidence? At one point do I sit up and take note?

When I say I've looked into every scientific explaination available to me... you'll just have to trust me on it because Vore I have. Now I merely just accept it as fact. It is what it is.

To answer you main question... proof to me comes from experience. I wish people would have even 1/4 of some of the experiences I have had. it's all the proff they would ever need.

For me... I don't need anymore proof. I've seen it on more than one occasion with my own eyes.

Thankyou sanctuary and escoban....I never said I would judge people's responces..the only judgmental people here are those who think me closed minded with no reason. I am a thinker...I often argue the truth of things because else there is nothing to seperate fact from fiction and the dividing line is already tenuose. I would not be a member of a paranormal research society if I was not open to the possibility of evidence.

I've had many similair experiences to yours Sanctuary...I find though that I tend to see things happening...and then they happen in accordance with a strong desire. These 'proofs' are often so personal that they lose their value in the telling...as others are willing to dismiss the perspectives of people beside themselves most often.

I'd be very interested Escoban (as your example is most objective) to see pictures of the weighing scale showing the change...That would officialy be the sites first substantiated claim..

No Problem Vore. I like the fact that you're willing to discuss the facts. I like science. I believe for the most part that Science holds the key to many mysteries and we have yet to tap into it at all. Many things can be rationally explained if you're willing to keep an open mind.

As for this

"I find though that I tend to see things happening...and then they happen in accordance with a strong desire. "

Ok now here I am going to have to ask for clarification.

My father arriving, I could chalk that up to your above statement. Although honestly I don't recall ever caring to see him or not.

Seeing my Greatgrandmaother.. I'll let that one go to desire too. Even though seeing her scared the life out of me. (yeah I know sounds weird seeing a family member you love scared you.. but it did)

My granddads brother. No desire there. Didn't even know he had one.

Here is the kicker.. X bf killing himself. Ok you could not possibly mean that this happened out of a strong desire on my part. Do you mean on his part? Could you clarrify this for me?

There is part of the above story with the x BF I won't post here but I'll talk to you in PM if you'd like. You might find it rather interesting.

I don't think you are closed minded at all. Even if you were being judgemental, to me, it could be like someone asking others to show them proof to make them believe. A lot of people are like that. They want to beleive in things secretly but their mind won't let them, so they are always out saying "show me". I will admit that from your original message and some of your other messages (one from July when I first "spoke" to you ?) a while ago that I got the feeling that you were one of these people, at least at that moment. If that is in error, my appologies for not having a accurate understanding of your mental, emotional, and spiritual state. I haven't yet attained that to perfection. So sometimes I ask questions like most humans. But it seems part of the human process to use feeling at least to some degree and I don't like to block that entirely.



I often like to ask questions because I am seeking to understand what the other person is thinking, feeling, or otherwise asking of me, in addition to possibly learning from them. I like to do this often also as opposed to just assuming they meant something they did not. But often I find that people will not answer questions or otherwise act in good faith with me, so I usually just leave them alone realizing that further discussion is impossible unless I am going to force them to do so - and I'm not like that.



I have seen a lot of people who search for answers to things for various reasons. It is kind of interesting really. Even though I know of evidence and experience it often as opposed to just being open to it, I still enjoy visiting skeptic sites just to see their viewpoint and maybe even learn from them. Despite being more of a obvious believer, I have seriously considered joining James Randi's organization, for example. To me, there is also always this possibility that the "other side" is going to show me something I missed.

In any event, I will leave you alone in the future unless you initiate dialog with me. I sadly get the feeling, again renewed, that this would be best and perhaps I should have done so from the start.

But of course, I wish you no ill will. Good luck. :)

Is the Bible itself not proof of the supernatural? What is the criterion for supernatural here? Give me that and I'll get started.

Leave this thread you....you freak....




lol only kidding....but no....to you perhaps the acceptance of the bible as truth may be all the 'proof' you need but from my point of view...especialy as someone writing a dissertation in which hundreds of relevant sources must be stated...one book alone simply is not good enough...that is a very close minded view of truth...seeings as truth is easily observed as being an average of views rather than an extreme view.

Passingover....you are quite correct...I am most critical of things I would most like to believe in...because I do not allow myself to beLIEve things without being deeply skeptical first. I am open minded to the possibility of truth but very deeply wary of accepting beliefs simply because they 'feel right'.

Reincarnation is a good example...I used to insist to myself that it must be true because I can recall lives that are not my own at the drop of a (top)hat but then I took on the great strain to the imagination that is history and noticed that what I had previously done with unamed men and women from past eras was exactly what historians are doing everyday....fleshing out the diseased with character and emotion. We are all historians in this way because we all ground ourselves in national/cultural/global identities that are routed in the past.

I am most highly skeptical of my own beLIEfs, I gave the example of my desires leading to things occuring as an example of something that I observe all the time and think of as 'truth' but at the same time goes against everything I can rationaly think of as true because of lack of proof.

I can state many times that I have succeeded in conjouring rainstorms or subjecting people to my will...but my account alone is not trustworthy because I know it is likely that I would forget the failures and remember the positives....If a man hits three hole in ones on a golf course at the same time it is thought a miracle and he feels powerful and all hear about this and think it of some great significance...what we don't hear about are the tens of thousands of good golfers who never get a hole in one...not so interesting.

If people want to use religious doctrine as proof...please write all passages in their original language with a signed statement from their originators that 'this is the whole truth and nothing but the truth' ....hmmm that's a funny image...God swearing on the Bible in court....quite a paradox if you think about it.

I'm not sure what this is proof of, but often, and I don't know where I get it from, I seem to say things, which there is no way I could know, about other people's lives.

Eg. My friend has been really upset, and I'm not going to say what the problem was, it's very personal, but I told her what I thought it concerned, which was a family member I didn't even know existed, and what the problem was, which turned out to be right. I have many moments like that.

And I've once seen a little orb... It was like a tiny sparkle of light floating about, but it disappeared after a second or so. Scared me to death though...

Orbs are a reacurring curse of my paranormal society...they appear on cameras and moving film and are often considered explicable by lighting conditions....problem is that quite a lot aren't and really piss us off because we're sick of investigating stupid damn orbs lol.

I have seen an orb...it was astormy night and I was sat looking out into the hall there there was a hoover propped up by the wall....a bright white flash occurred and a ball of white light shot out of the hoover and went up in the direction of the stairs...my sister verified that she'd seen a flash but was sat behind the door so had not seen into the hall. This is not all that spooky because there is a rare phenomena called 'ball lightening' where lightening displays properties similair to plasma balls observed in lab tests...created when lightening strikes and sends static off in all directions...these balls are known to make loud popping noises when they vanish...or even explode...so if you see one...stay back...but they should only happen during storms.

I can't remember what the weather was like... but, considering that theory, it does make sense. I get orbs around me a lot in pictures, as well as red eyes, lol. In all my pictures I get red eyes! It is really scary. I have to use the red eye tool. Why do we get red eyes in pictures?

Anyway off topic. Thanks for the info! :D

Red eye is caused by light reflecting firectly off the back of the retina...this happens most often to people who stare directly 'at' the camera and meet the flash head on...but it's also down to the refractive index of your eye (peoples eyes all being different in focus and size)...My father was a photographer...and I am the amazing red-eyed photograph destroyer...

Not seen many orbs arround me though but I haven't looked much...most are caused by paralax reflections (or some such camera jargon)...

Ahh, well me eye's are strange anyway. People ask me if they are my real eyes! I'm quite insulted when they do! But I must admit, it does look like I'm wearing contacts. I have big greeny/yellow orangey eyes! Intense eyes, lol. :D But I love em!

*puts on his school teacher's hat* On topic please Sara lol....god I love that fantasy...um...?

Who has proof of fay folk....I really want to believe in them....

I spent several years with a Parapsychologist so I can understand exactly where you are coming from Vore.

I saw on the news some years back, where a guy had managed to catch a gnome on tape. You could see it running past in the background, and a vast number of experts were unable to prove it as a haux. The little creature was about the size of a two year old, but didn't move like a toddler or a dwarf, and was much too fast.

I haven't been able to find the clip online yet, but I mailed both main TV stations in the hope that one of them might still have it.

Oh oh I hope you find it that would be a really interesting thing to watch in slow motion and take a looksie.

I'll keep you posted. :)

I have two friends from Norway...both called Vehbecka(sp?) they seem to be proof of fey folk in their own right (plus they're so cute and blinky)...I'd love to see that video...I'd have my 'debunking' hat on...mostly cos I'm not keen on gnomes existing...that's pretty scary...gnomes aren't known to be so nice..

Vibeke?

And norwegian gnomes aren't too bad, as long as you treat them nice they're helpful.

I'll take your word for that...In England most of our folklore is about people getting kidnapped/beaten/eaten/killed etc by things half their size..

*pouts and fiddles with her crappy grammar school tie*

Anyways... I saw a photo not so long back, and not a Fearie one which are in Bradford Photography museam, but it was taken by a man wanting to show his son, on holiday, and in the background, there was this little... thing, running across the screen... it was like a little goblin, lol. I have to try and find it now.

Being skeptical to mean means largely looking at the other side of possibilities and explanatons besides those of the given belief and then exploring them as fully as [reasonably] possible. Just feeling right isn't really the sum total of evidence for accepting a belief that many people have, at least for themselves. Honestly I doubt there are many people who have came to accept things just because it feels right in and of its own with nothing else behind it.



I am very iffy with reincarnation. I accept the idea, but I find it hard to distinguish from other things that I have sometimes and so I am not in any rush to attribute things to that. With many things I don't beleive I will be able to determine (as in distinguish between) the truth of that until the end of my life here or perhaps close to it. I can easily see how there could be much truth in it, and I do consider it a possibility very worthy of exploration. For example, I've seen a certain person in many different form and times in different ways. It is strange, and much of it was before I believed in this sort of thing. But seeing them alone in this way is not the only thing that makes it out of the ordinary. It is more how everything ties together that does it, to me.



To me, the usefullness of the "proof insistence" and the skepticism is more of a grounding effect. It helps to keep what can become very dynamic quickly, more stable. The problem with rational thought seems to be more with the people who use it that lack creativity. They will dismiss something with one explanation for example, not seeing another explanation that exists which they did not think of or experience. And worse, they will hold that something is true based on an experiment, with the one explanation, yet overlook the hundreds of other things they had no ability to think of - many of which are right under their own noses and are accepted by science already.



Yes, as I have said before here, when you are more skeptical (the heavy skeptical type) I almost think that you have to go through an interactive process in order to ever beleive. That is, someone actively has to be doing things which will cause you to see things. I used to be like that myself and always had interests in the "paranormal" even back then. But I really didn't beleive truly in them at that time other than having the little "feeling". You might be surprised to learn that for a lot of people who do believe in these things *strongly* it ended up being an interactive process for them too.




I know you are joking here, but it does show something besides the underlying issue of translations, origin of the bible, etc. Often people do things like this with "paranormal" things. The "If you want to show proof of this, do this". Then they go on to detail things that are kind of ridiculous and show that they really do not know much about what they are talking about. And really how could they conventionally if they have no experience? How can they claim authority? The problem then often if you truly wish to go on with the onslaught is getting them to truly listen to you, let alone to work together. Imagine what would happen for instance if someone really did do what you asked and brought it to you. What would you do? Would you accept it or just say "no way".

Why is it that supernatural happenings are so hard to prove? I have had wierd things happen to me. Of course no one I know really truly believed me. Remember when Princess Di passed away? Well I got a sick feeling in my gut the night before that someone of great importance will die tragicly. Well I didn't know it was her, but when I heard on the news the next day, my heart dropped.

Back when I was about 10, My best friend and I were walking home from school. And I said, wouldn't it be cool if we were really sisters? Well a few years later, my Mom married her Dad...step-sisters. I still get weirded out thinking about it.

And on the spooky level, my Uncle passed away a few years back, he died unexpectedly, by a drowning accident. Well I'm still not over it, but I do feel his presence now and then. When he went missing we all had hope, but one day I got this feeling that he was gone. Not to be tricky but I was in the shower when it happened. Could it be the voulnerablity thing, that triggered it? Well from time to time I'll be minding my buisness and things fall of my shelves. It'll be as quiet as possible and it will happen out of nowhere. I get the chills every time it happens.

So is this coincidence, is there such a thing as coincedence or do things happen for a reason?

I believe things happen for a reason. when your spirit/soul evolves its will assend to a higher plain of awareness. in each happenstance. as long as you do not deni the truth it gives you. more thigns will come to light. when you know something. then believe what it is you know. and believe in your ability to know this. do not doubt yourself or your perception of the events. you will find you will be right.
what you do is not something wierd or horriable. eccept it. it is apart of you.

The only reason there is a communication problem between us Night is that you say things off the top of your head from pure belief. Belief here is not taken as proof...just because you alone beliee very strongly in the truth of something is not enough to make it so.

In psychology I might add there is a phenomenon called 'mass hysteria' where the excitement of a single persons perception travels around a group of willing believers like wildfire. This is what occurred with the Witch trials the world over...a few people believed strongly that there were evil witches that needed to be purged...the populace roused by fear of the possibility of this being true opened their minds to the idea and allowed themselves to see the women accused of being witches as being guilty...despite the fact that victims were often those women simply ostracized from the community for justbeing old and lonely.

Beliefs are dangerous things and people do not realize this...You are afraid of science because it threatens your beliefs...I am afraid of beliefs because those with beliefs have always tried to do away with science...Take Galileo as a fine example...died imprisoned by the church for saying that Copernicus was right about the sun being the centre of our galaxy....Proof only imprisons the imagination but only by tieing it to reality to make imagination a solid fact rather than an idle musing.

p.s There are statistics available that show that 'miraculous' events should happen often enough to make it seem as if they happen every day...considering we know most people on the planet through a chain of supposedly six other people who pass on the stories to everyone else.....so even if one very unlikely event happens to one person out of six billion every minute then you will be able to hear about at least a few new ones every day...

Just curious Vore, you seem to know a lot, I'm just curious, being new to this site, how old are you and what kind of education do you have. Excuse me in advance for being nosy... I am just interested in what you have to say. And actually you remind me of someone that I truly respect, which is part of the reason I am asking these things.

I believe in science. I believe in the supernatural. Can they co-exist? Or is it that something is considered supernatural only called such because science has not yet been able to explain it?

I'm 21...I started off life as a geek and had friends who were geeks, nerds and general social cast offs. I read science journals from a very early age encouraged by my grandfather (a teacher of physics and astronomy amongst other things) read into physics, astronomy, natural history, evolution etc etc before I'd finished primary school.

I would not say I was ever overly intelligent...I'm a poorly motivated student of the school system...but my curiosity provided the motivation to learn enough out of school to pass triple science with full marks (though I'm a math retard)..and in doing so enraging my physics teacher who I would ignore in class and even have the cheek to correct...or talk about photons when we were just being taught about light being a wave (it's a virtual particle too!)...anyway..

Since then...A levels in history, psychology and english (more of a philosophy course)...And I'm still reading outside my English and film university degree (third year) as much forefront science and philosophy as I can...I'm a member of the Myers Paranormal Society that investigates hauntings and other whatnots through scientific 'and' psychic means...I consider myself a sceptic and open minded...because if there's one thing that science has taught me...there are few things you can make up that are weirder than the truth.