I'm quoting on a different thread that was started about, something or another else. Silverwuulf, I really like your brain process, I think we'd get along.
But in reading this it raised a thought...

This entire, Jesus is the son of God, and it is through him to which you must go to be redeemed. This mortal being which stands apparent as you and I, and dies like you and I, is The Chosen One?

First off, let me put doubt in all the minds of the faithful... Or at least express my own doubts. Back in the time before christ it was law that you must be married A YEAR BEFORE PROCREATION, if you broke this rule of chastity you were brought in front of a bunch of people and stoned to death... Now, no one truly believed that mary and joseph had been faithful at this time and that's why they were shunned by so many. How genuinely creative to say that was God's baby, and not that I deny the notion... But that baby was no more Messiah at the time of his birth than any other baby born on this earth, mortal and perfect at that time.
Now I truly believe you grow accustomed to your surroundings... And jesus was raised thinking he was a king, the coming, and of course his mind would be open to things he'd be capable of...
I don't think it was bad to tell him these things, he was a great martyr... He believed in himself, and that's all he needed to die a noble and richous death.
But I still don't believe he was any more son of God than you or I... And call me anathema if you please, but I just can't find logic or reason in thinking Jesus has anything to do with my redemptions, or that he was a savior...

And to prove his mortality, and imperfectness I'm truly trying to decide wether I think he sold himself over to the romans and that's why the jews, his own people, hated him so much and had him killed... Because his whole birth was a misconception, he proved that by doing something wrong...
And how'd a jewish prophet start a fallacy about God that later, after his death, was edited relentlessly by the Romans, now we have Roman Catholic....
And the wars between these two are endless....
Check here. Wars Betwwen Romans and Jews, Destruction of Jerusalem

Just put whatever you think, I'm all for discussion and debate.

I'm sorry, I didn't read ur post but I'll give my opinion on jesus being the messiah

I don't really know, he could be the messiah but he probably isn't,
there are many anomalities in his story though,
like for starters, it's said that the jews wanted him crucified, but we also know that the emperor then was very ruthless and would actually have no reason for not crucifying him, thus not even asking the jews about it,
it is said that the emperor offered to realease either Jesus of Nazareth or the mean killer (which was also named Jesus) thus making it very likely this was just a metaphore used for the nice and the dark part of jesus...
then, him being taken off of his cross, why would it be done? Romans did not do that, actually the point of crucifiction was being left for the ravens and stuff like that

next there are theroies that Jesus was actually doing this stuff for purely economic reasons, but I cant say much about this one coz I don't really remember :)

another thing, it has been found out that he actually had 12 or so children...

ok I'lls top rambling now :D

The Jesus myth is flawed on countless levels, the virgin birth, the divine conception, and the general consensus that Jesus was indeed the son of God. The story of Christ is more or less a set of guidelines of how one should live a clean and fulfilling life. In my opinion, the story of Christ wasn’t meant to be taken literally, but rather metaphorically. When people try to put literal meaning to metaphorical events they lose the power of the myth. To truly appreciate the story of Christ you have to accept that the story may not have been completely factual, but rather intended to be an inspirational and thought provoking…

I dont believe he is, just seems like a bunch of bullshit to me.

Aaron--In my opinion, the story of Christ wasn’t meant to be taken literally, but rather metaphorically.

I agree somewhat... It is a metaphorical book made by man to control their followers, perhaps by guidelines they believe would keep the world in harmony, but also to gain power...

And the only way to accomplish this, is to take a healer, and tell him he is god-send...Like he didn't know that already.

Just thinking about it, I know nothing for certain. But I'm dying for a "By the Book" Christian or Catholic to come here and still be convinced, because then perhaps I'd have to believe... I'm open to truth and questioning....

Okay I just want to put something here...

Religion is a belief, not really an argument...

I am a new Christian and I'm proud to say that I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior, accept that He died for my sins...

but... That doesn't mean I have all the answers. I disagree with the Bible and I have a lot of questions about a lot of things.

I still live in sin, I'm a horrible person and I read Wicca books and keep them stacked right near my Christian books.

I have a lot of questions and I'm no longer afraid to ask them. In searching for answers, all I've found is more questions.

Of course I have doubts, but that's a part of my limited human mind. It's a beautiful thing to believe in something, whatever it is...

That's just my belief, and I'm sorry because I really don't want to argue it. I have no proof to give you; it's just something I believe in.

*nods*

Well, if you think you are in any way limited... I pity you. That's a vice, darlin'. All the answers you will ever need are inside you, somewhere... Please don't think you have to wait to die to be judged, if you think you're horrible... DO something that makes you feel GOOD...

The part of the Jesus story mentioned by Silverwuulf is one of the many faults I find it Christianity's ideas, which also contradicts their ideas about "free will". If Jesus was chosen to come to earth and die, if the people who condemned and nailed him to the cross were chosen to do so, if Judas was chosen to betray Christ, etc, etc, that means that those people had no free will over their actions. Even though it may appear like they had a choice, they could not gave done anything different than from what they were chosen to do.

Why did Jesus look at the heavens and ask God to forgive the people because they "do not know what they do" ? What do they need forgiving for ? They are, unknowingly, doing exactly what God had chosen for them to do. If they had not done that, Jesus would not have died, God's plan would not have worked.

alrighty...

you watch a movie and you like it so much that you watch it again. you know exactly what's going to happen but you do not in any way force it to happen.
knowledge is not necesarily enforcement.
God knows what is going to happen but He doesn't force it to.

that is a bit confusing but my faith is unshakable...

Jesus wasn't chosen to go down and die, Jesus chose to go to earth and after people chose to plot his death, which he knew, but did not force, he chose to die for humanity. No one was forced into anything.

I wouldn't say "forced" exactly, more like played their part.

Jesus' life, just like everything else, is still part of God's overall plan, the "perfect" plan. By having a "perfect" plan one would assume you know exactly how you want things to turn out. God send his son, Jesus, to live a sinless life on Earth, so that he can die and thuss save humanity by taking in their sins. I think that it was necessary for Jesus to die, because as the Bible says "the wages of sin is death". That's how he saves the people, through his sacrifice - and so continuing God's perfect plan.

You make it sound as if Jesus had no choice in the matter. Jesus chose to die so as to give others life. Just because "the wages of sin is death" that doesn't mean that Jesus was forced into it or had no real choice in the matter.

Me myself no I don't think so. I believe that there are more then one god. I just can't believe that with all the gods that are believed in in this world through time that "God" (As in the christian god) is the only one that is real. I think that all or at least most of the gods people have believed in over time are real. But that is just what I think. I could be wrong. Or not.

I would like to see the info about him haveing 12 or so kids. hehe I have someone I would LOVE to show that to. Could you put up the link for it please?

I’m reading all above posts and just don’t believe you people can be so hypocrites and infantile. What more evil should god cause to you begin understand with which despot/sadistic creature you deal with, ha… . All this bla-bla about Jesus sacrificial “mission” in purpose to save humanity just proves which kind of sadist we deal with. Real and good almighty would settle the mess (he caused) with good educational actions. It was his sadistic style to end up as is to seed hate between Jews and raising Christians and add more pepper to his dirty games. Wake up people … identify true enemy of humanity.

Do you mean to say that God or Jesus is the true enemy of humanity? I've read it twice now, I'm interested... Please keep going....

I'd like to see where someone was hypocritical or infantile.



I fail to see how God sacrificing himself makes him a sadist.



Not true for a few reasons:

1. God didn't make the mess, we did.
2. He said that to forgive sin he must have a sacrifice (The sacrifice is not necesarily blood, just something from your livelihood, so as to show God that you are repentful enough to give up part of your livelihood to be forgiven). To forgive the sins of anyone that is truly repentful for until he comes back would require God to sacrifice himself. There is no sadism in sacrificing yourself.

There is no enemy of humanity. God is not responsible for christians actions, God never said to them that they should hate and kill jews, they did that on their own.

First: Jesus isn’t god! He was very good educated Jew in Torah, Mishnah, Gmarah and latest Kabalistic magic knowledge. He was one of Issy commune in Judas desert and was in acute opposition with Jewish mainstream, since he was demanding from Jews to insert changes in Jewish traditions (which you know as impossible). When he pass “red line” and begun to use Kabalistic powers, Jewish high tribunal, Sanhedrin (consisted of 90 olds), judged him as a traitor with death penalty. Since Romans was dominated at these times in Israel, he was given to Romans for execution. And Romans do executed him. All what came after is just ugly Roman politics to exploit poor Jesus to revive their dying empire (how the hell Vatican is sitting in Roma, center on corruption???). First 300 years Christianity was accepted as a deviation from Judaism. After Uneducated Romans in spirituality inserted tons of fear and conflicts in new forcing religion it fully developed to demon religion, with thousands of contradictions, which inserted humanity in 1500 years of dark ages. As you understand I’m totally neglecting the New Testament as an evidence of something.

Second: all this was well prepared god joke to seed extra mess, contradiction and kill anything what gains enough power to act like god. I’m not quite sure with which type of destroyer demon we are facing. One which pretending to be good, but actually, from the beginning had “mass murderer” repertoire. Fly through all what we know about him and he will turn not father or teacher but rude killing dictator. This god killed nearly 5,000,000 Jews (his own chosen nation) during the Egypt exodus (3700 years ego) due to foolish misunderstanding of “Golden Calf” sin and even before totally destroyed the world (the flood).

With “father” like that you don’t need other enemies.

Okay, I'll go with this for now, Jaba... You seem to know more facts than simply "what the bible says is..." And I for one think the bible has nothing in it that can't be questioned... Since, as you said and know, the Romans took over. And I'm not sure if it started there or not, but I think it was the beginning of yes "Empowering their falling Empire." By means neccessary... and job well done, if I must say so myself.

So, I checked into this you mentioned... The, "Golden Calf." Correct me if I'm mistaken, but this was where Judas got the commandments, and as he was gone the people had a lot of fun, then built a golden calf to worship... There came the commandment "Thou Shalt Not worhsip any God Before Me" Something like that, you get the gist....
And all I got from that, was it was another tactic to bring the people to the Roman Church, with their gold and civilization. Just another go at banishing old pagan belief systems....
Could you perhaps explain the killing...? Is it for certain or is this in any way possibly a myth? I have a hard time believing "God" did all this, where is he now... Where is this damned Apocolypse? Oh, we must be doing just fine if he hasn't flooded our asses.... Perhaps the Romans have already gotten what they wanted? An endless supply of money and followers, and so they will never parish... bah.

Teach me... I'm like... an incomplete person for all this.

Correction. Moses.

When it comes to faith, nothing really matters either way, since you've basically given up on having any argumentation behind your beliefs. As such, it's equally valid (not at all) to believe whatever you feel like.

I suppose the topic begs the question....

What if I don't believe in God?

Then Jesus would be immaterial as a religious figure.

Now if we look to him as a philosophical and moral figure...then that I can go for.

It takes a really strong, and enlightened soul, to declare "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Gandhi did it, and so did the Buddha.
And so did Jesus.

Garden of Gethsemane sequence -

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39, RSV.

Read: He didn't want to die.

He did as he was told, as a good son.

Just my of course....

I like those Ghandi quotes you're constantly throwing around now Pier, and I agree with most of the 'love lessons' given by those three... but I can't consider anything that involves prayer very enlightened. If you're asking someone else you're already messing up in my book.

I mean look at the Ghandi quote in your sig. "You must be the change you wish to see in the world.". Not "You must prey really hard so your god will be the change you wish to see in the world." or even "You must prey for your god to et you be the change you wish to see in the world.".

He seemed to understand quite nicely, I don't get why he went with the religious bullshit really.

Probably because I don't ask someone else as you put it....the real objective of prayer and meditation is to focus on what's inside, not towards some external source of answers.

Just my opinion, of course.

Meditation yes, prayer no. Those are by definition aimed at something external.

He died for 'your' sins 2000 years before you were born? Wait a minute...what the...?

Was Jesus a virtual particle? That's very odd...

Here you state 'I am a horrible person'....by the standards of who? I'm a damn fine person...a bloody excellent bloke in comparison to a God that has the powers to aid those in need who suffer through no fault of their own and yet does nothing.

A God that creates only to ignore and then has the bizarre cheek to demand worship...why? What is worship to a God?

Only the nice people ever feel guilt or look upon their own actions with dissapointment...the mere fact that you think you could be a better person makes you more moralistic than the majority.

Without worship God does not exist, belief is the blood of Gods...

Jesus cannot be the son of God even if God does exist because if God does exist he created everything and therefore Jesus is no more the son of God than you or me....

Ah, Indeed. Thanks. :)





Alright see, I've always agreed that we are ALL children of God, if there are children of God anyways... And since the vast majority assumes God is Creation... It's a given, right?
Well, then why the hell did Jesus die? Was he involved in some 'other' cause, Shitzophreniac, etc. etc.? Of course it's possible, but I somehow doubt it.

I believe in Jesus' cause... I don't believe he was the coming. I think he had a way about him and the people listened. I think after his death possibly, his truth was twisted...
He was a healer, no doubt about that. He saw things that others didn't see... He was OPEN about his being extraordinary. :ph34r:

So, I agree with all that.
But I can't shake this feeling he was manipulated, scandaled; something.



Definately. :icon2:

You guys too concentrated in fait. What about truth? You don’t look so interested in. It's seems that you just ignore a lot of experience and facts we have accumulated on this issue for thousands of years. God proved from the beginning suffering overdose dependence on human worship and we, from another side, have proven that we just can't and won't to supply this kind of worship, we can't stand his laws and we can't serve as good slaves. Probably your god isn't exactly what the reality already had proven. May be your self image illusionary god does not exist?

See, I am all for that... Otherwise, why is God so hard to accomidate? Like I said I believe in Jesus, I question GOD.
Please, feel welcome, I'm all ears to what you have to say...

AND... since I believe in Jesus, I'm sure it is easy for plenty of others to do so... So that leaves no room to question God, does it? Because Jesus this, and Jesus that... And he obviously was such a good man.

From the book of John:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[1] it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[2]
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- 13children born not of natural descent,[3] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[4] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.




Again you are applying the fault onto god for human actions.

He didn't want to, but he still DID, he CHOSE to do so, he could have run...easily.

My God? Who said I ever believed in a god?

Okay, there at the beginning of what I quoted... Were they speaking of God or John?

And- in opinion, since this is controversy-
"Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God"
That's fucking contradicting.
At any rate; Is that an implication, and a dead give-away perhaps, That God was created by man? Because isn't 'natural descent' being created from God? If this god was omnipotent, if he was the alpha and omega... You are nothing less than god when being born... Why the need for acceptance?
So the being accepted by god is simply a set of rules created by MAN....A guideline they needed at the time for structure, and obedience.
Am I wrong?

They're talking about Jesus (God)



I fail to see how.



No, in that case "natural descent" means being born from a human father and a human mother


Where does it say that you're "nothing less"



I don't follow exactly what you're trying to say, since I don't see any correlation between that and anything else you've stated



Simply put, yes.

It should also be pointed out, Tara, that John is the only one of the Gospels where Jesus is proclaimed and extolled as the Son of God...and even as God himself.

Whereas the others...no one, not even Jesus himself, ever made such a grand proclamation of Godhood.

Jesus always addressed God as "Father", and himself as "Son of Man", not Son of God.

Vore~

Yes, I believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died for not only my sins, but everyone's sins, many years before any of us were even born.

I have some issues with God right now... See... He lets people suffer. He lets little kids who are four years old hide shaking in a basement praying to Him that a bomb won't kill the. He lets little children get abused by drunk parents or molested or even an adult get raped or wars to break out. God lets some forty year old man who's done nothing in his life but serve God get killed in a drive by shooting.

God lets these things happen because of a little thing called "free will"

I don't understand it all yet. I have a lot of questions. Why are there diseases? Why can't God just make automatic heaven? Why did Jesus have to die so horribly if He never even sinned? Where do babies go when they die?

But... I have faith, and even though I have a lot of questions, I will never doubt God or His Son.

God does not "demand" worship. He gives us a choice. We can choose to love Him and praise Him... or to simply accept Him and live our lives no differently.

He gives us a choice, and He in no way ignores us.

I don't have all the documentation or the references or even mere proof to back myself up. I only have my faith...

and... Archangel? ... It is my belief that Jesus Christ chose to die for our sins. It was ultimately His choice.
I will get back to you on the referencing on this... but here's a scene from one of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)

Some guards that paid Judas to betray Jesus Christ come to arrest Jesus. Peter cuts off one of the priest's servant's ear. Jesus says to Peter, "I could call an army of angels to rescue me if I wished..."

Something like that... So it was his choice. He could've backed out at any time.

Jaba~ Where did you get your information? Some of it sounds like the Apocrypha...

vampiress_fate~ i don't understand exactly what you're asking. the only thing God needs for Him to accept us is that we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior; that He died for us. That's it. There are no rules or guidelines. If you join a church... that's a whole other story.

What's your point? It's still in the bible, regardless, and as such it's still a part of the christian mythos.

[/QUOTE]
They're talking about Jesus (God)

No, in that case "natural descent" means being born from a human father and a human motherWhere does it say that you're "nothing less"[QUOTE]

I think it's needless to say that if you don't repent for your sins, you ARE less than. You WILL go to hell, as they put it, and burn for all eternity...

That sounds to me like you have those who are "worthy" and those who are not. Thus, "less than."

At any rate, I've grown tired of the redundance, if I don't explain myself clearly enough, I apologize. Perhaps you should try harder to understand what I am trying to explain and stop trying to be clever. I refuse to run in circles.

*goes on reading what others have to say*
And where the hell is Jaba?
*waits*

Does Jesus really matter when it comes to faith in God?

Yes if your Christian, No if your Jewish or Islamic. I voted yes because he still influences the lives of the later.
Was he murdered? No. He was dead when they went to take him down, unlike the others. Jesus asked for God to deliver his soul back to God, and so God did.. before he accualy suffered mortal death. Jesus also said "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." Freeing the ones that dealt the punishment from any wrong doing.

Old Jewish writings told them of the coming of the Messia. It did not tell them that the Messia was not for them. God wanted to free people from the burden of the old law, and the death to sinners at there hands. Ten Commandments First Amendment... "Love one another, and believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God that died for your sins. And you will have everlasting life." Looks like it worked. :fpope:

God now has 3 tribes once again. The Christians, Jews, and Muslims(yes Muslims came from the folds of Abraham and his God, Jehova, known by Islam as Allah).

Since I started typing this post the Yes votes increased from 15 to 28%

What fulfillment to you get out of that sort of life style?

No pride
No lust
No envy
No anger
No greed
No gluttony
No sloth

By folowing those you are grinding yourself into the ground. They are all natural instincts and neccesery to have any decent sort of life.

Then there is the 'golden rule'. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I mean come on! So if they treat you like shit just carry on treating them nicely? Placing you compleatly at thier mercy?

You accept that he died for your sins and he is your 'savior' yet you fully admit that you live a sinfull life. You are making exactly what 'he did for you' 100% pointless by sinning again. And you also have lots of wiccan books. Occultistry was condemned by the Christian church I think...

*portion removed*

Archangel.. Exelent point

Darkfeary.. If Jehova saved everyone.. you would now be sharing your home with 15 people. In a slum on the west side. Death.. War.. Plauges.. AIDS, are apart of the plan of all Gods and Godesses. We are the grand experiment to them. None have a god that will save them from everything unless you are imortal. (if you are please e-mail me)

"God knows the number of hairs on your head" is translated by Christians that we all have a set day to die. Cool.. its 40 years from now so I can jump off a bridge.. No. All he means is that he knows everything about you in detail. You will now wander till the light comes. Then, get use to your realm of death, or fear it, and walk away from the lite.. Booo your a ghost.

I am Dark Neo-Pagan (one year). Was Christian for the rest. (was president of my youth group in Church for 3 years). The turmoil over the rights of my soul is tremendous. I still have nightmares.

Jehova is a God.. Jesus (joshua) is his son before the earth was. Satan does not exist.. "He" is the escape goat Gods children blaim for there own misgivings.

Note, the man set free instead of Jesus was Barabbas..not someting that meant Jesus like one said previously. (False poster *hex** .. wink*)

MoonShade
Let the Dark guide me to a better light.

Whats that? Sounds interesting....

I'm supposed to believe Jesus is the Messiah, but I don't really believe anyone is coming to save us.

Yea. Another good point... Save us from what exactly...

Dark Neo-Pagan is what some call... NightKind. Not Wiccan realy. we dwell on the Dark side of the wheel of life. The Dark-Good. The practice of Nocturnal Witchcraft. What better time to practice the craft than when the trials and tribulations of the day happen where the light hides from us?

A Right is performed. And with training....Powerfull Magicks that Wiccans can only dream of doing.

Look up Konstantinos in a search... He will show you the true way to follow. He is not "wiccan" he is the real deal.

Vampyre(pronounced "Wom' peer" is old Slavic for "Witch", They were Dark Neo-Pagan. But they didnt drink blood. Just used it in Charm's and Spells. Most common in Romania. Bram Stoker used this and the Vladislav Basarab (Vlad Dracula) legend to create a new Vampire. He was Catholic.. sorry.. not a Vampire.. but a very nasty bloke.

Don't buy a used book. It has had some power drained from the previous owner. You can feel the difference.

[quote=BlutEngel,Oct 13 2004, 12:18 PM]
You accept that he died for your sins and he is your 'savior' yet you fully admit that you live a sinfull life. You are making exactly what 'he did for you' 100% pointless by sinning again. And you also have lots of wiccan books. Occultistry was condemned by the Christian church I think...

Let the man feel for what he feels the strongest for. This person is as I was.... ripped from east to west... with no direction to follow when I did break free. I would say to him. If you cant let the Christian religion go, to make room for what your heart has pulled you all along. Then go back.

We have no room for those of little faith.

NightKind United

Okay...

I never claimed that accepting Jesus and that He died for my sins would make me stop being sinful, would make me change my life completely. The Christian life is a journey, and I'm far from reaching the end. It's a journey to be closer to God, and I'm not perfect. No one is. Being a Christian does not mean "stop sinning" if that was true, I would never be a Christian. Occult is condemned by the Catholic church and Judaism and various other Christian denominations. So is homosexuality and lying and cheating and murder and every other sin there is.

"Let he who is perfect cast the first stone."
"Judge not lest ye be judged."
"He who has commited one sin commiteth all sins."
Verses from the Bible. (spelling might be wrong) So obviously those who "condemn" others are not following the Bible to a tee either. Everyone is full of sin on this earth, and joining the Christian walk in no way stops someone from being a sinful creature.

I am not saying in any way that by being a Christian that it's "okay" to sin now. I try to find the right way, and I'm searching for answers right now and in doing so I am looking into other religions. I am not trying to excuse myself. I am a sinner. I will always be a sinner. I am trying to be a Christian and I will falter. I am making a lot of mistakes, and I will continue to make mistakes but I will grow as a Christian and my faith will only grow stronger.

Christianity has room for everyone. Jesus accepted everyone, though he did hate. He hated sin. He hated it, but he loved everyone. God loves everyone. Jesus wouldn't turn someone away because they were into occult or were adulterous or a murderer. Jesus would love them and talk to them and teach them and offer them what he offers everyone. Christianity is for everyone.

Now there have been people asking about what Jesus saved us from. Okay. Jesus saves us from ourselves, basically. The wages of sin is death. Hell. Everyone belongs in Hell because everyone is sinful. Jesus died though he was innocent of all sin so that we could be forgiven. He paid the price that we all deserve to suffer. He saved us from the punishment of sin.

He did not save us from this world or the harshness that is everywhere. That is for us to experience and deal with. He gave us free will, He gave us diseases, He gave us love, He gave us charity and kindness. We live among good and evil and that is what we live with in this part of life.

See all the religions road tested....http://www.fadetoblack.com/consumerreport/religion/index1.html

that should help...

Ok as unfounded beliefs are part of this thread.

God doesn't exist....therefore Jesus was just some bloke who may or may not have existed. Who cares he's dead now anyway therefore not able to answer prayers sorry.

God is a concept made up by humans early on to fill in the gaps of protection previously filled by parents...hense why Gods are often stern looking parental types. Or Snake headed monkeys...whatever..

Religions can be created and are created all the time...none of the new religions being any less realistic than the old...they only have the disadvantage of not being around for a long time and therefore don't seem like they are part of the continueing world. NONE of the religions practiced today existed in the form they do now even four hundred years ago..the stable nature of religion is an illusion of time passing and wiping the slate clean.

Wanting religion to be true is not wrong....

Believing in things without substantial reason is not wrong...

But argueing without and hope of any form of agreement on either side? That is stupid.

"But where do all the calculators go?"