Many people have probaly read White Wolf's version about the "first" vampire named Caine but what parts are actual truth from the Christian Bible and what parts did they just completely makeup?

For example I was just wondering if it is written in the Bible that God had his archangels turn Caine into a vampire or was he just banished to the land of Nod and never heard of again.

Should this be in Arcane? I'm not quite sure...

If you wonder, pm a mod... Personally, I'd say Lore, as it deals with vampire myths. :)

Ok where does it make reference in the Bible that Caine is a vampire? I have never seen anything in the Bible that would lead you to believe that.

I know that but it is written in the Book of Nod that Cain killed his brother Abel which is from the Bible. In the BoN it is also said Cain was banished to a city east of Eden which coincidently came from the Bible as well and he met a woman there which some speculate could have been "Lilith" who was Adam's first wife who left because he wouldn't let her be on top when they fucked BOO HOO! However I was wondering whether it is written in the Bible that God cursed Cain by placing a mark on his body to warn people not to kill him so therefore Cain would have to roam the lands the rest of his life in solitude. So does anyone know what I'm talking about or not?

Yes i do know what you are talking about.

Reference scripture : Genesis 4:3-15

In this story the lord also made a promise to Cain and his descendants that he would exact vengance on those who tried to hurt him. Most people can take that and run with it.

To clarify an earlier post, he didn't meet the woman any where, he had knowledge of the female before he was banished. She became his wife I assume.

I believe ur theories on Caine are from the white wolf's Book of Nod.

White wolf takes biblical stuff and twists it to suit rpg'ing needs. Its not factual, though its well thought out.

According to the bible, Caine was cursed by God. But as to how he was cursed, is up to interpretation of the readers.

Actually my reference is the King James Version of the Bible. I'm not well versed in Whote wolf or its literature.

I supplied the scripture, feel free to read. All of the information is there.

The guy was banished, then his replacment Seth came along, and he was never heard from again *Whooooo wooo woo* and that my dears is how the story goes

The whole thing about Cain becoming a vampire is alluded to in Genesis where God supposedly puts a mark on Cain's forehead....as a warning to not kill him. Over time some have interpreted that to mean a sigil of protection or a spell.
WW put a more liberal spin on the legend by stating that the "mark" was that of the curse of Undeath.

White Wolf (although I am their faithful patron) has really done a massacre on interesting theology and left a lot of people regarding the "Book of Nod" as being truth.
Not saying that any theological text is fals, only that the "Book of Nod" is not theological text to begin with.
What White Wolf did was take certain elements from the Torah translations and "Book of Enoch" (which yes, is real) and worked from that.

As far as the actual elements involving Cain, little is known.
The 'curse' or 'mark' that was placed upon him has been takin in a lot of ways, and I'm thinking people want to make this a real mark or curse and completely overlook the metaphor.
Most theologists regard that as being not the birth of vampirism, but the birth of something much simpler...guilt.
But this is a very conservative viewpoint.

I traced a slight link to vampirism back to the same mythos, but it has little to do with Cain, and more to do with Lilith.
Lilith had a brood of children called 'Lillum', creatures of the night, and reportedly very nasty.
Now this is Mesopotamian lore, the fathers of Judaism, but you'll never find mention of these demons in the texts.

You can however find a cain cult that existed up until about 200 years before the reign of king David, hard to find (as the temple tried their hardest to wipe out these heretics), but nevertheless, still present.

In my opinion, 'Vampire: The Masquerade' used the Torah in just about the same way as 'Neon Genesis: Evangelion' used the Kabbalah and the Bible.

I've heard about this variation of the theory of origin..... As I know it, Cain slew Able, God got pissed and changed Cain (into a vampire). Cain has 13 kids, each unique in their vampiric gift, making the 13 clans. Cain and his 13 kiddies disappear from the face of the earth, leaving the 'Cainites' to fend for themselves.

Not sure how accurate this is, but then again, there's 1000 ways to tell each story.

Hello all. Caine was not made a vampire by angels, no. He was made a vampire by Lilith; Adam's first wife, He than roamed the land of Nod and every place outside of Eden. It States this in a missing book of the Bible called The "book of Lilith".

i'm not sure i buy into these 'missing books of the Bible'

I being dead serious because I have a copy of that book.

Cain, son of Adam got mad on hs brother beacuse God received the gifts of Abel and didn't wanna receive his gifts! So Cain killed his brother and got married and was banished forever from those territories! He wasn't the first vampire definetly!

I believe that there are missing books of the bible. Back in the day, the church authorities would have wanted to filtrate and refine the bible, in order to restrict their followers from certain information which they considered may have inspired independent thinking. Much like what happened in communist Russia. Knowledge leads to freedom.

THere's a lot of apocryphtic texts with biblical contet that wasn't put into the bible.
Truth is, the bible was put toghether by a bunch of priests 200 years or so after the death of the individual known as Jesus.
Many of the books not included were books that the gnostic christians followed, ie. the ghospel according to thomas, the ghospel according to Philip and the much debatet ghospel according to Maria Magdalena. A lot of books used in Judean mystiscism weren't included either, as the purpose of putting these texts toghether was to form an institustion (the church) that could work as a superior to all of the newly discovered christian faith.. Dan Brown has used a LOT of these text as inspiration in the DaVinci Code.

but enough of that.


Historicians have for a long time tried to trace this myth of Lilith, and found very dubious sources. True, the texts claim to be as old as many of the books in the tora, but the earliest source date from the late part of the first millenium AD.
In fact, many historicans consider the whole Lilith- myth to be fiction, as one can trace the text to a spicific author, and not to oral traditions, as you can with most of the other books from the older part of the bible (the tannach)

"Forgive me old friend. I say unto you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you'll have no life in you."
~The Bible~

One of the most current and popular myths involving the vampire origin is that of the Biblical character, Cain. Most are familiar with the biblical tale of the first murder ever committed, but for those who are not, here is the story.

Cain:
Adam and Eve had two sons, Cain, a tiller of the ground, and Abel, a shepherd. Both brought offerings to God, Cain brought the fruits of the ground, and Abel, brought one of his flock as an offering. God approved of Abel’s offering, but not that of Cain’s. Cain became very angry at this. As he and Abel where in the field on day, Cain rose up and struck his brother repeatedly until he was dead. God asked Cain “Where is your brother?” and Cain answered “Am I my brother's keeper?”. God then asked Cain what he had done, that his brothers blood cried to him from the earth. For his punishment in slaying his brother, Cain was cursed, the ground would not produce anything for him any longer, a fugitive and vagabond he would be.
Cain told God his punishment was more than he could bear, to always be hidden from the face of God and driven out from the face of the earth. Cain also told God his concern of being killed, but God set a mark upon Cain that if any should harm him, they would suffer punishment sevenfold. Cain then left into the land of Nod.

In myth, it is said that the curse that God had set upon Cain was to be cast into a world of darkness with a continuous craving for blood, and this curse has been passed from generation to generation, all the way up to the vampires of today. It is said that when Cain went into the world of darkness, that he became acquainted with Lilith, the first wife of Adam. She had given some of her blood to Cain, which awakened him to his ability. After wandering for years in the wild, he returned to being amongst the mortals where he built a city called Enoch. There, Cain created the second generation of vampires by turning three mortals, they in turn created a third generation of vampires in vast numbers, and Cain finally forbade the creation of vampires from thence on.
After some time, the city Cain had built was destroyed by a flood. Cain ended up abandoning the city and leaving all the generations of vampires behind to do what ever they wanted, but before he left, he reminded them of his command to not create any more vampires. The vampires completely rebelled against Cain’s command and made a 4th generation of vampires, who rose up against the elder vampires


"©Larae of Darkness Embraced"
~Used with permission~



Lilith
Queen of the demons is Lilith, long-haired and winged. She is supposed to have been the first wife of Adam.
Lilith, like Adam, had been created from the dust (Adamah) of the earth. But as soon as she had joined Adam they began to quarrel, each refusing to be subservient and submissive to the other. "I am your lord and master," spoke Adam, "and it is your duty to obey me." But Lilith replied: "We are both equal, for we are both issued from dust (Adamah), and I will not be submissive to you."
And thus they quarrelled and none would give in. And when Lilith saw this she spoke the Ineffable Name of the Creator and soared up into the air.
Thereupon Adam stood in prayer before the Creator and thus he spoke: " O Lord of the Universe, the woman Thou hast given me has fled from me."


~The Story Of Lilith~
from Ancient Israel: Myths and Legends by Angelo S. Rappoport


Adam grew lonely and was given Eve to accompany him. One day while Eve was in the Garden of Eden Lilith seduced Lucifer, the guardian of the garden, and snuck into the Garden of Eden. While in the garden Lilith turned into a serpent and tempted Eve to eat a fruit from the tree of knowledge, which was banned from God as any who would eat of the tree of knowledge and wisdom will see all the truth in the world. After Eve tempted Adam to eat of the fruit, God banished Lilith to the land of NOD. There she learned how to use the lifeforce in her blood to gain things which she desired. While in NOD it is said Lilith met Caine and taught him the same.
According to this vampire legend, Cain wandered until he found Lilith by the Red Sea. Cain asked Lilith: "Out of Darkness, How did you build this place? How did you make clothes? How did you grow food?" Lilith smiled and said "Unlike you, i am Awake. I see the Threads that spin all around you. I make that which i need out of power."
So Cain asked her to Awaken Him.
Lilith answered: "I will, but i do not know what it will do to you because you have been truly cursed by your Father. You could die, or you could be forever changed."
Cain insisted that a life without power is a life not worth living.
Lilith cut herself with a knife bled into a bowl. Cain drank deep and thought it was sweet. He then fell into the Abyss, - into the deepest of darkness. Here he was visited by three Angels.

The first one was Michael, General of Heaven and wielder of the holy Flame. He said unto [Cain]: "Son of Adam, Son of Eve, thy crime is great, and yet the mercy of my Father is also great. Will you not repent the evil that you have done, and let his mercy wash you clean?”
Pride prevented Caine from accepting God’s mercy so Michael cursed [Caine], saying "Then, for as long as you walk this earth, you and your children will fear my living flame, and it will bite deep and savor your flesh."

Next Caine was visited by the Angel Raphael, driver of the sun, who once again offered mercy and once more Caine refused. Raphael cursed [Caine], saying "Then, for as long as you walk this earth, you and your children will fear the dawn, and the sun's rays will seek to burn you like fire where ever you hide always. Hide now for the Sun rises to take its wrath on you."

Finally Caine was visited by Uriel, the angel of death. When Caine refused God’s mercy the third time he was cursed once more. Uriel said "Then, for as long as you walk this earth, you and your children will cling to Darkness. You will drink only blood. You will eat only ashes. You will be always as you were at death, never dying, living on. You will walk forever in Darkness, all you touch will crumble into nothing, until the last days.”

While God cursed Caine, he did not bestow the curse of vampirism. It was the drinking of Lilith’s blood that caused the angels to visit Caine, and it was the angels that actually cursed Caine with the pains of vampirism, not God.
This being known, it sets up a solid argument that Lilith was actually the first vampire.



'In the beginning there was only Caine.
Caine who sacrificed his brother out of love.
Caine who was cast out.
Caine who was cursed forever with immortality.
Caine who was cursed with the lust for blood.
It is Caine from whom we all come.
Our sire's sire.'


From the book of Nod



The Book Of NOD was written by Aristotal deLaurent Period. It is thought by many to be the Vampires' Bible. The diffrence from the bible and this book is that instead of focusing on the light, it focuses on the darker side.


Then there is the theory that Vampires have excisted as long as men, that they are/were just a different species of humans, - an evolutionary track. Surprisingly many seem to go with that theory. And why not? The vampires have a long and very well documented history, but what science cant understand, gets called a myth. Still, even at the dawn of the scientific age, scholars and members of the clergy were convinced of the vampire’s existence.
As with many myths and legends, the exact date of origin is unknown; but evidence of the vampire tale can be found with the ancient Chaldeans in Mesopotamia, near the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers, and with Assyrian writings on clay or stone tablets. The land of the Chaldeans is also called the "Ur of the Chaldeans," which was the original home of Abraham from the Bible.

Throughout time there have been more than enough registered cases to indicate that Vampires most certainly do excist alongside with men, and always have. Even in this century there have been cases of mysterious deaths where vampires have been blamed. Corpses have been found with puncture marks (usually) on their necks and emptied for blood.

Claiming to be a Vampire however is a certain proof you are not one. They have walked amongst us for so many years, hiding their true identity. Why suddenly give it all away? And drinking blood does not make you a vampire. Only a person with a blood fetish and/or a romantic notion living out fictional fantasies. "Vampire" is hardly the correct name for that condition.


"Superstitions are for the most part shadows of great truths."
~Tryon Edwards~


I am not entirely sure how accurate any of this is, as I stumled upon it and realised how it related to your conversation of Cain and Lilith, I figured it explained a little more wether fiction or non-fiction it still explained a little more of what you were talking of. And makes a little more sense to me.

OK After reading all of the above, i have to say that "possibly" it maybe be fact but otherwise you take a bunch of pesanstants and monks who dont have tv or internet, and have to make up as a erotice and intresting story to keep public intrest. also include local myths of beasts that kill local live stock and then disappear and you have your story.

i belive in werewolves, vampires, demonds and angles but you have to take in consideration 2 thousand years (give or take) of speculation and piecing togeather of storys and history as well as the variations when translating the languages.

Gretchen shows us that like most things - lore, myth, and history are open to interpretation.

also if the human race can barely stand people by diffrent colours, origins, acents, and birth places how do you think they will stand for (to all intense of purposes) people of diffrent species?

Nice post Gretchen, however, I would to point out the reason we call vampires myths is not because science doesn't understand it, it is because there is no solid evidence to back up their existance. Yes there have been corpses found with puncture wounds and other claims throughout history, but, most of these claims are due to lack of scientific knowledge and most of these claims are from God fearing times, when Christianity had a definite hold on society. A time of ignorance.
So I do not really trust any claim of those times. Because usually it is through their lack of knowledge in that area. I've read loads of these claims/reports etc, nearly all can be rationally explained.
Someone earlier in the posts mentioned the Bible being formed by a council. This is the council of Nicaea, founded by Constantine I in A.D. 325. They were deciding which books should go in the New Testament. There are apparently over 80 books written, many of them Gnostic. The books were voted on by the council, divine inspiration had nothing to do with it. Also, Constantine I was a high pagan priest in a sun whorshipping religion, so the Church was actually founded by a pagan. He also included lots of pagan ideas into Christianity (Christianity is perhaps one of the biggest misnomers ever!) to suit the pagans. The reason Constantine founded the Church was because Christianity was threatening to split Rome in half (the other half was paganism) as they were a rapidly growing religion. Constantine simply chose the winning team, backed them, and in a political manoeuver, rather than a divine one, unified Rome under Christianity.

Throne777

Hello, yes immoratal emeny, I know of what you speak of and I believe in the some books written by important people in the Bible, and even the story of Cain and what happened to him. I know the creation of the Bible was made for the church and meant to enhance their statis in the whole of their known worlds. Such as they had made the Bible for them to use to say those who didn't follow their way of teaching then they all go to hell and here is your proof. And the stupid things also written was that only those things of god and by god good destroy evil, like the cross and holy water and light and silver, were again used by the chuch to enhance their statis and bring more followers on their side and give more and more money that is given to the chruch. And also I believe that chruch also created hell in it's toture form that we know of it today, and again to give more money and followers and again heres your proof. I believe in the devil, and hell, and that there is more than one god in the heavens, in even in a heaven, but I don't believe that there is just one life to life here and now, but forever and so a pemermit place of joy and hell is too much for me to believe in. And so I think that they are missing things in the Bible that the chruch didn't want the public to know, and one of them is the story of Cain, and that he was the first creater of the night in one form or the other. And also, a qucik question for Azriela, what creature are you, casue I know your not just some mere mortal or human, no, and if so I would like much to know for sure, cause I suppect that you are an Angel. And no matter what being or creature you may be, I find you very atractive, enchanting, and a very beatuiful creature. And would like to see some more pictures of yourself and would like much to learn more of what you've been through and what you've seen, cause I myself have seen much and all. The true dark angel forever lives in the dark.

According to the Bible: Cain was given a mark as punishment. He was banished.

He later went on to found a city.

No vampires are mentioned.

As to what happened to Cain after he killed Abel, Genesis Chapter 4 explains quite clearly.

And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17 ¶ And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehu'ja-el: and Mehu'ja-el begat Methu'sa-el: and Methu'sa-el begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
21 And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
22 And Zillah, she also bare Tu'bal–cain, an instructor of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tu'bal–cain was Na'amah.

(Incidentally, Cain's wife is mentioned in Chapter 1 of the Second book of Adam and Eve - considered apocrypha. Her name is given as Luluwa, and she was his twin sister.)

Now, I've read Genesis 4, and Genesis 5, and worked out the lines from father to son for all the Children of Cain, and all the Children of Seth.

Beginning with Seth's lot;

Seth > Enos > Cai'nan > Mahala'leel > Jared > Enoch > Methuselah > Lamech

Now, Cain's get;

Cain > Enoch > Irad > Mehu'ja-el > Methusael > Lamech

Now, that's just a tad scary, isn't it?

Cain is Enoch's Dad, but so is Jared...

Lamech was fathered by Methuselah (According to the Seth's lineage) and Methusael (According to Cain's lineage) which just screws up your mind even more!

Now, considering you have the same amount of time to get children from the banishment from Eden, all the way up to the Flood (Lamech, according to Seth's Lineage was the Father of Noah, he of the Ark fame) Cain's get's generations are much longer... I think this is where White Wolf got the idea as Cain as the first Vampire from. It just seems so wonderfully lined up that Enoch can have two fathers (He may be Jared's child, but he's Cain's childe)

Another point on Cain's supposed immortality is that the years of his life aren't mentioned in the genealogies, unlike practically everyone else.

In short, there is no mention of Cain's death anywhere in the Bible. You'd think that the point is a tad moot, consdiering during the flood, EVERYONE except Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives and kids are drowned. I still find it odd that Caine's years aren't mentioned, whereas, if you count the years from the beginning of the world, to the flood... You'll find that Methuselah, poor guy, died in the same year as the flood!

However, after much running around in the guts of the apocrypha, I've found a mention of Cain snuffing it!

Read below,

4 So Lamech arose, took a bow he had kept ever since he was a youth, ere he became blind, and he took large arrows, and smooth stones, and a sling which he had, and went to the field with the young shepherd, and placed himself behind the cattle; while the young shepherd watched the cattle. Thus did Lamech many days.

5 Meanwhile Cain, ever since God had cast him off, and had cursed him with trembling and terror, could neither settle nor find rest in any one place; but wandered from place to place.

6 In his wanderings he came to Lamech's wives, and asked them about him. They said to him, "He is in the field with the cattle."

7 Then Cain went to look for him; and as he came into the field, the young shepherd heard the noise he made, and the cattle herding together from before him,

8 Then said he to Lamech, "0 my lord, is that a wild beast or a robber?"

9 And Lamech said to him, "Make me understand which way he looks, when he comes up.

10 Then Lamech bent his bow, placed an arrow on it, and fitted a stone in the sling, and when Cain came out from the open country, the shepherd said to Lamech, "Shoot, behold, he is coming."

11 Then Lamech shot at Cain with his arrow and hit him in his side. And Lamech struck him with a stone from his sling, that fell upon his face, and knocked out both his eyes; then Cain fell at once and died.

12 Then Lamech and the young shepherd came up to him, and found him lying on the ground. And the young shepherd said to him, "It is Cain our grandfather, whom thou hast killed, 0 my lord!"

13 Then was Lamech sorry for it, and from the bitterness of his regret, he clapped his hands together, and struck with his flat palm the head of the youth, who fell as if dead; but Lamech thought it was a feint; so he took up a stone and smote him, and smashed his head until he died.

Which does explain this strange quote from Genesis 4:

"And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold."

It's all very odd, that Lamech didn't succumb to the sevenfold curse for killing Cain, though.

I expect all you biblical schollars to rip me to shreds for this. :D

Nicely done Syndic. Beautiful post. Please post more if you can find it, regarding Cain and related in other texts or gnostic texts.

Hello! My research and studies have recently brought me about this forum and I must say that it's nice to be among such educated individuals. I am from Hickory in Chesapeake Virginia and must I say...knowledge of the occult, pagans, or even theology is rare. Anyways I see we're discussing Caine's place in the bible and in Vampirism... First I'll simply state that I am a student of ALL knowledge and any information to this subject (whether it be contradictory to mine or not) is welcome.

In the book of Enoch it states of Caine's creation of the city. All information of this is previously listed on this forum, so Ill save the repetition... Then his unification with Lillyth further extends his negative reputation. It is evident to me that one, Lillyth, being excluded from the bible (probably to discourage the fall of male supremecy) unifying with Caine would be a perfect excuse to further censorship the life of caine as to not encourage thought against Christ, or against the churches various views. Many of the beliefs dipicted in White Wolfe's Archives are well researched...while some are lengthened for what I believe to be "productivity propaganda" I believe these books may hold some truth in them. Caine's Vampiric nature is still questionable to common logic...I myself wholly believe in the existence of Cainites and of Caine and Lillyth being one of the sort...however my views are irrelevant. Where the bible stops and White Wolfe picks up is difficult to say for many books are left out of the current bible, and many others are lost to the sands of time and the fires of protest.

Book of Enoch
section I, ch. 5:5 - And therefore ye will curse your days, and years of your lives perish; the everlasting curse will increase and ye will recieve no mercy.
Section II, ch. 1 - We all will swear an oath, and bind ourselves mutually by a curse."

Now the presence of the curse is evident and is passed trough blood lineage...

Section II, ch 7.4 - And they turned themselves against mankind in order to devour them. 5. And they began to sin against the birds and the beasts, and against the creeping things, and the fish, and devoured their flesh among themselves, and drank the blood thereof.

Those who drank the blood were no other than the cursed of mount Hermon.
Lead by Azazel... who was taken by Micheal, Gabriel, Surjan, and Urjan and blinded to never see day light again, then cast in the rocks to stay in pain forever.

For further explanation of the crimes of drinking blood cite the Book of the Jubilees. " Take heed with blood, take much heed. Bury it in the earth, and eat no blood, for it is the soul! Never eat blood!

...drinking blood leads to never seeing day and living in pain forever.... hmmmm

note that nowhere in the book of enoch is the word Vampire used... however the descendents of Caine are named Cainites. This is largely because the word Vampire is a greek word dirived from vampros...meaning something of wickedness.
we of the respective culture of the occult refrain from the usage of the 'vampire word'

well I hope this is useful to someone! Im interested in this thread continuing!