Okay, I've always been skeptical of this magic mambo-jambo. However, now that I have a little extra time my mind is starting to get bored and such... I'd like to figure this magic issue out for once.

SO! While I didn't believe in the use of magic, I would be willing to go in with an open mind and do the best I can to learn. I could probably put in half an hour everyday or so...

As far as the type of magic, I would like to see something that effects the world physically... just to disprove the skeptic in me.

So, anyone have a plan for me and my training?

well for starters
magic only effects the physical world in subtle ways
not vulgar and flamboyant like in lord of the rings and harry potter

if you are truely interested here is a book for you to read

inner temple of witchcraft

what bout david blaine ??
u seen him do his magic thats some realshit there

To be honest with you, your message made me a bit angry (mine might do the same to you thoug) and I was about to lay into you over it. But after going over it again, I can see that you are at least being open about it. So I will do the same and let cooler heads prevail. And you seem nice anyway.

So some things.

1. There are two "you"s here within this message that I think I see. One is dismissive and rather closed minded, the other is just curious - open a little bit - a cracked door - but you just want someone to open it for you or to give you a justification.

2. You dare me? This is just a joke, right? Come on.

3. "extra time on my hands ... I could probably put in half an hour everyday or so"

My experience is that this stuff does not stay contained in the way you seem to think. Say, suddenly things did start to happen, hypothetically, do you not think this will change your life ... just a wee bit maybe? That perhaps you might not just be able to control everything. And how you think... will there ever be a moment where such things are not in your thoughts? Listen to me, if you are serious please: Be ready to put in every single second ( + ... ? ) for the rest of your life...



If you are serious, I would recommend working on your mind first. You want to see something that effects the world physically? - easy go for a walk. Many of them. I'm not being a smart ass. I mean it. Go camping -- alone -- and leave all the junk behind. Walk a couple miles in the middle of a raging thunderstorm -- to where? -- nowhere -- that is the pont. Fall asleep everyday outside under the stars. Wake up at dawn and watch the sun rise. Sit in total darkness for hours without falling asleep ... etc.

But none of these will do any good if you are not in the right frame of mind. The point is to experience what is out there, to see and feel it. I know it sounds silly probably. What has this got to do with "magic" and how is this showing me anything? Well, that's up to you entirely, not me.... I'm certainly no teacher and besides, I don't do dares. ;)

take care and good luck also.

Honestly, my views on magick are thus:

Magick is the act of taking advantage of a situation that already has the potential for influence.

It's your choice of influence, that qualifies it as magick. For myself, should my ghosts decide to influence something for me, I suppose someone else might call it magick. To me, it's just a thing. Nothing at all magical about it.

For a Christian (which I am), a divine act of God is simply that, an act of God. To a nonbeliever, it might be magick.

*shrugs* Just a matter of interpretation, for me.

I seriously think that the best way to get started in magick is to start solitary and find out the level of your passion and the level of your ability.
Also, when people have mentors and something goes wrong or they don't understand something, most will go to their mentors for everything, and that will never let them have magickal freedom and it is also extremely straining on a mentor. I know.

what bout VODOO DOLLS and black magic

yeah- sorry for my attitude. I really would like to figure this out...

anyway, almost everyday I walk through the forest near my house- I see it changing... so yeah, I spend *some* time in nature. While I'm in there (truly, being serious right now) it's just wonderful to see all these systems working themselves out- the blackberries encringing on the walking path, the wild flowers bloom, the trees growing a few leaves, trying to predict what trillian flowers are most directly related to teach other by where they are in position to each and what their flower color is, looking at the moon!



but I guess what I'm unclear about is- where does it go from here?


(and yes, the "i dare you" thing was just a jest.)

One of the first things you have to understand: "Magic" is not something that you are going to find in books. You may find inspiration in books, but do not let yourself lean on them, they will become a crutch.

Personally, I find that meditation helps you to center yourself, to get yourself into the right frame of mind. Practice with it. Create a place within your mind that is yours alone. It could be a meadow filled with flowers, or a dark room, lit only by candles. Make it unique. Seal it away from the world and use your mind to do things to it. Make it change in slight ways, whether it be from day to night or cold to warm. Feel it and relax into it.

Spend time by yourself and with others. Sit in on a coven meeting. Read books to learn of others. Make sure to take in everything with a grain of salt.

Generally, "magic" will not show itself in obvious ways. For some people, though, it does. A close friend of mine discovered that when she is angry, things move. It doesn't happen often, as it is hard to get her that angry, but when it happens, it is scary.

I am always glad to hear of an open mind. Maybe that door will crack open a little more each day.

It's okay, I think I was in a bad mood before. Your attitude probably wouldn't harm anyone but yourself at this point anyway.

I'm glad to hear that you are around nature, and have some sense of attunement to it. But what I was getting at mainly was breaking old patterns, associations, and limitations. Getting away from people - the mundane - what is your normal life and patterns. Breaking the way it influences your thinking. Experiencing and appreciating things you did not think possible and likely, noticing things you did not even give consideration to previously. And, perhaps, just perhaps, accessing a part of your mind you did not know you had. Oh, and the nature part is nice too, don't get me wrong.

Where does it go from there? Who knows. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know what other people have or are able to have. (I know what is popularly said...but...) And there's nothing wrong with being "normal" as in not "having" "anything" either for many reasons.

But I would think that by opening up in this gentle way (merely isolating, removing the old patterns, opening new ones, etc.), would begin to [very slowly] bring out that which is within or near. This wasn't what happened with me, no. But "my" "way" was very "rough" in many ways, and even if it would work for you (which I seriously doubt), I would not share it with you because if I had the chance to do it over again, perhaps I would not do it that way (or even at all) myself. So I am just telling you what I wish I would have known *and listened to* before. See, even if nothing did come of it of that sort, at least one would be wicer for the experience of being outside of the current patterns.

So in short, it all comes down to you. ....And I bet this sounds like a bunch of "mumbo jumbo" still, doesn't it? :) Well, no matter what, please at least hold on to that desire to know of the "unknown". That's cool to have... and necessary for us a people to go anywhere but here I would think.

Good luck to you. :)

If you're looking for less fluffy, more 'results' (and science, as far as science and magick can work together) try looking up Aleister Crowley, The Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and the Kabbalah.

I would define magic as skilled manipulation of what you think you know, so in some ways, electricity is magic, confidence tricks are magic, coincidences are magic. Sorry, I know how general that sounds but i think...well yeah, at the heart of all magic is Perception.

Yes do read about Crowley, he was a really interesting character, although I attribute many of his experiences to prolonged drug use. I think it's about time someone made a film of his life.

Alister Crowley was a strange diseased man. He referred to himself as "The Beast" and associated himself with the number 666. He was a bit off his rocker and very mislead. I do not believe that he would be one you would want to study, unless you want to see what not to do. Drugs, yes, smart man, no.

Come on man you need to understand magic befor you just jump in an go for it.
As for black magic it is real but dangerus. becareful or

the thing is about maintaining a desire to know the "unknown", while it may be essential for acquiring any magic skill, I can't help but see the examples of people all around this forum who are so delusional that they believe things that not only couldn't be true, but aren't consistant with the knowledge we already have...

(for example, the continuous flow of 'vampires' coming to the board. although I will admit some consciously don't believe that they're a vampire, only are pretending, but some might truly be delusional from searching for something that they want so much...)

but yeah... just some thoughts.

(and faithless, would you mind describing what you know about magic? i'd be interested in hearing multiple perspectives)

The man in question is merely rather an interesting character. What he studied, however, and much of what he wrote -does- make sense. For a start, unlike Mr. Gerald Gardiner, he didn't make most of it up as he went along...

In any case, Kabbalistic teachings and high magick are well worth looking in to in my opinion. I really try not to use any of it too much - because it doesn't really seem 'right', but the few occasions when I have, I have gotten results.

"doesn't seem 'right' " as in morally, or that it doesn't seem like it should work? (and any good books about the Kabbalistic teachings and high magick?)

Morally, I suppose. I'm a child of God now, so i'm not sure what my stance of selfish 'magick' is, currently...i'm still working things out ;)

Anyway..as for books, to be honest I mostly use webresources. Some links you might like to check out are:

essenes.net

and

halexandria.org

I can also recommend Crowley's 'Book of the Law' and his various writings on high magick. I saw a 'simplified' version of kabbalistic teachings in the bookstore the other day but to be honest it looked like complete crap...

Why is it essential to desire this, why do you believe this? I am curious. I do not see that myself, just that it would be less likely to be noticed conciously (it would be dismissed first probably) and then worked "with". I just liken it to wanting to know that which is not known - a thirst for knowledge (etc.), which I think is a good thing to posess. Not anything isolated to "magick" alone.

Hmmm. Perhaps all/most/many/some/ of the people are delusional. Then again, perhaps they are not. I suppose though if one has sufficent knowledge to be able to make such a determination, they must already be quite knowledgeable about the matters in question and that which relates to them. Perhaps they should share their knowledge, to cure others of the delusion - or at least attempt to do so...

Of course they might just be delusional. It seems it is a part of human experience to be deluded throughout life about various things. It would seem a delusion (or arrogance) to think that one goes through life without being deluded in itself. Inconsistencies with the "knowledge" "we" already "have" -- I agree.

Of course, I'll leave your thread alone now. I feel as if I talked enough. Take care.

Alright. If you're serious about this, you need to be more open to it, not saying it's just something you can do in your spare time. You have to actually be commited to the time it takes to learn the knowledge of what you want.

Those are called miracles... and it's a sad person who closes themselves off to them.





We've had knowledge since the beginning of time and our knowledge is always changing. What is impossible today, will be common-place tomorrow, because if I know nothing else I know this... we really dont know anything. We just think we do. Also, if you limit yourself to physical, scientific, tangible knowledge and proof, you've lost a whole spectrum of knowledge and fullfilment.

Lauren

The real key would be determining who is delusional and who isn't. If someone thinks they did something and someone else (without promting) confirms it, does it mean they are both delusional or did something really happen.
I know there are delusional people out there who think that magik is "the cool thing to do" but there are other people that arn't.

Another thing to do is to reevaluate what you accually know. I think that people who say "Science awnsers everything" are the same type of people who would say "God awnsers everything" and become too closed minded.

The definition of magik changes from person to person. Something one person says is magik someone else might see as something diffrent and not technicly magik (And vice versa). Personally I'd say magik is when you receve power from a higher scource (god, gaia, demons, etc) via spells or prayers. So if someone did something that didn't call on any kind of higher power, I wouldn't consider it magik even though the person doing it might.

(sorry if this sounds a bit disjointed. I swear it fit perfectly together in my head)

Good luck with that...

Nobody says 'science answers everything'...It's only said that science has the potential to do so...Religion however can't have potential as it stems change and freedom of thought.

Magic is stuff we do not understand yet...Just as the word 'dark' is used for anything possibly dangerous we don't understand enough not to fear magic is a word that covers a huge number of things.

To me very little is impossible...vastly unlikely, yes, but not entirely impossible...We can't know the sum of all possible eventualities so to claim otherwise is arrogance. Science doesn't do this as people sometimes mistakenly believe...A true scientist knows that they know only what they know and this is but the tip of an iceberg.

Chaos Magic comes closest to my understanding and practices but to be honest even that is far too dogmatic for my liking....The idea for me is basicaly to smash your preconceptions to bits just long enough to try the impossible, through destroying your own axioms you learn how they may be false...Or that they may be both wrong AND right at the same time...We live in a very odd universe after all...Maybe the cat in the box is both alive AND dead....Shrodinger's zombie cat...Meow!!!

Sorry got tired there...

if you intend to just jump in all willie nillie and try something big to get major results be warned, you dabble you die. simple as that, i decited to d othe same thing once, and while i was on my knees in the middle of a 7 foot wide pentagram in the middle of a rainstorm i thought i had found the gait to endless power, i ended up getting a temporary mental illness and would lose touch with reality for hours at a time, and talk to people about things they had never mentioned, make little inside jokes that i only knew, and start fights with people who never did anythig in the first place.

and really i was lucky. i should be dead. point being, go slow, and get a second oppinion about everything.

and if you ever see a spell invalving exact measurements be as exact as humanly possable.