Okay - first off some 'guidelines' for this thread.

By Classical I mean:

* Immortal (can live for thousands of years without dieing. Normal 'mortal' concerns do not harm it - i.e disease, old age, et al).

* Drinks blood to survive

* Possess some sort of 'power' - weather you personally define this is ability to change into bat, invisibility, telekenesis, telepathy, flight, increased rate of healing, whatever...

An example for a 'classical' for me would be the vampires in the works of Anne Rice, Poppy Z Brite, or Bram Stoker.

By existence I mean 'exists in this world'.

This is not a thread for you to blythely dance in and declare yourself to be Lestat Vlad Dracul the third who 'vants to suck our blooooood'.

So - all that taken into consideration, are there any initial thoughts?

0Oo_o0 *raises hand* THATS ME!!!

lol j/k

Hmm, I dunno... Anything is possible, however I don't think I believe that this theory is plausible based on a number of things. The thread about vampires breathing (in vam discussion) spurred a thought inside me. It made me believe more that these type of vampires do not exist and probably never will, except by divine (good or otherwise) intervention.

Peace be with you
Dark Blessings

THat reminds me of the oudlandish claims thread, that was funny....

Personally I don't believe they exist. Ofcourse everything is possible, but for a classic to exist quite a few of our currently accepted limits of nature would need to be significantly wrong. This is ofcourse possible and has occured before, but as science advances the chances of this happenening become very small and there really is not enough reason to believe classics would exist to justify the amound or research it would take to go trough everything again and lock the possibilety out as good as science can.

Sure, like everyone keeps saying, anything is possible but I am going to say that vampires that are in the classical sense are really not having a great chance at existing, unless they are really good at covering up their tracks, and I mean all of them. But wait if they are so good then why do we know so much about the classical ones?

I have just been thinking, maybe if you were a first of the vampires who were made you were known as a classical because you are so very ancient in your own right and black and white movies and the lion king are classics too.
Hmm... ...I may be straying from what I trying to say here. But then again I want to know what this topic was about in the first place because honestly, I only replied because I saw the title of the topic. Possibilities, opinions... Well this in a hand is what I thought, maybe you(the topic starter) wants something like a lovely little explanation from about 50 differant people but maybe not and I guess that is why possibilities was put in there... Anyway, that is all I truly have to say except, what is the topic of this thread?

In my oppinion classical vampire do not exist. As much as I would like the idea that they do, i agree with raza though, that scientific advances makes the concept less likely to be true. Although many things may be possible, i do not beleive they could have existence now on earth. Maybe in the past, but in present time they would be known and there would be no question of it. Nothing can really hide in todays society, kill people and not be atleast known about.

Building on Draq's post, you'd also think that as technology advances it'd be harder for a classic to live in secrety rather than easier, seeing as how murders and mysterious deaths are less and less common and more and more often explained to the last bit there is to know about them, while securety measures increase in potency and a classic who has lived for so long would be more likely to be old fashioned and not understand or grasp their potential than, if not the average human, at least the people who design and set those things up.

However from what we read from stories and myths, they would have been a lot more common in old times. Or maybe we just find stories that are old more believeable just becouse they are old, and the myth's of the greek Lamia for example are really no more viable or based on any reality than today's fantasy/horror romanticised vampire stories

Interesting, though I don't think advances in criminal sciences really have much to do with it... There are millions of missing persons. Millions of unsolved cases... Not even taking into account that there could be millions of gov't coverups.

for a moment lets just pretend that criminal sciences make it impossible for these murders to go unnoticed... All it would take a classical, is to move to a 3rd 4th or 5th world country, where noone cares. They could feed and not worry about a thing... And since they are classicals they wouldn't have to worry about death and disease etc.

Firstly, to Draq - I started this topic simply because I wanted to see what others thought regarding the possible existence of the classical. I wanted to see who would be open to the idea, and who would not be. I wanted to see if anyone actually believed 100% that they did exist, and if so - why they thought that. And if not - why not?


Anyway, moving on...I was about to say a similar think Revamp3d.

If a classical needed to feed say - once a week, maybe more...and if we take into account that a classical would have 'powers' such as the ability to fly, and move more quickly than the average human it would be relatively easy for such a being to 'zap' to a third world country - somewhere where hundreds of people die daily from malnutrition, and basic diseases that are curable in first world countries - feed, kill, and go absolutly un-noticed.

Another possibility is that the vampire does not need to drain it's 'victim' in order to feed, and to survive. All that would be needed would be a small amount of blood from say, ten human beings per night - if a classical haunted a large city, all they'd need do is pick a likely pub or club, and 'get busy'. Covering their tracks? Well, naturally gaping holes in your neck might tip you off, but if you take into account the possibility of 'healing blood' all they would need is to heal their victim, and voila - no problem.

And there are many unsolved mysteries - disappearances, murders without bodies, etcetera. So who knows? I live in a relatively sleepy little town, and in the past few months we've had no less than three or four murders in 'mysterious circumstances'. I mean honestly - the last murder we had was about four years ago, so thats quite a big deal.

As for a modern classical (hm oxymoronic) not being able to 'grasp' today's technology - it's a possibility. But then again - what would one do with all those nights? You must remember that just because they have been alive longer does not mean they have fixed themselves permenantly in one era. I mean, when most of us were born, mobile phones with video capture devices inside them were not available. The idea was purely ficticious to us. Now they are here - do we not understand them? No. We learn - infact we just seem to absorb, without even trying to learn. It's all part of being around the 'culture' of generation x. Those vampires are around that culture just as much as we are - why should they not be familiar with computers, and the internet? In many ways, they have had longer to be introduced to the idea...perhaps they grasp it better than so of us do.

Goodonya mate.

lol..


Good post.

Personally I don't think Vampires in the way you describe exist, with the crazy abilities and such. But I do believe classical vampires are around, they just don't turn into mist or bats. They don't explode in the sun or anything like that.
I think classical vampires live longer than the human race, and because of this may have learned heightened awareness to the abilities they possess. I mean if you had an extra few decades or a century wouldn't you want to figure out how to use that 90% of the brain that lays dormant for most of us?

They are real{IN MY OPINION} . They just aren't what you'd expect. The funny thing is many people on here have met vampires of all walks and types and labels. You just don't know it because you're looking for the wrong things.

Or when truth is waved in right in their faces they choose to ignore and dismiss it.

imho.

Oh, I agree entirely. I was just using 'crazy abilities' as an example. Personally, I don't believe classicals can turn into bats/mist. I DO believe they can see their reflections...and so on.

This has been a very interesting thread so far. I'm only sorry I don't have more to contribute to it.

I agree with the one who said a lot of it has to do with what you are looking for. Focusing intently on something and sort of missing the big picture happens a lot, I will not say it does not happen to me sometimes still though... :)

A weird thing I noticed is how distinctions are made between the "types" of vampires and its variance among different people. And not to even consider what lies in between all these classifications that individuals and groups have came up with. I'm not so sure they really mean anything at all. I would concede that have a certain amount of worth in being able to convey a general idea or classification of that which is in question, but I dislike them still. So I am just going to ignore that here for the reasoning above. If this bothers someone, please excuse me, I am not trying to anger you. Just communicating how I wish to.

I think it not only possible but highly likely (etc.) that certain occurances thought to be "supernatural" do occur in actual physical reality. It is also my belief that this occurs with people who are "human".

Blood. There is much history of blood being used for ritual purposes. There is a lot of what you might call (and the word often has a negative connotation but i do not intend that here) "primitive" belief relating to the ingestion of blood. Myself, I would lean towards the belief that some of these myths and such stem from a very ancient common underlying source predating known written language in this modern era. In this way I see a likely "tie in" of some sort here.

For needing it for physical survival, I would not rule that out. I see it as less likely than the above if intended in a certain way, but in others, I see nothing that is not natural. Blood is mainly water after all, no? Even the water we so called normal folks drink today probably pulsed through countless of viens of those in past generations if you think about it. The key here seems to be "need" as opposed to "use". And the "need" thing brings up the question of why the desire would be satisfied one way when others that would seem more superior exist. That would bring me back to a "spiritual" explanation which i will not go into now.

Immortality. Someone here told me that there is no theoretical upper limit on human life span. I do agree. Our processes within are dependent on envronment and external factors in addition to those within us. There is nothing "ungraspable" (mentally) about people living to be 400 years anymore these days. It just isn't occuring now or is something easily implemented other than in theory. Of course here immortality is being limited only to a physical sense. That is flawed inherently i believe but i will not be a broken record again today. If you go into any sort of spiritual immortality, there is so much more out there.

All in all would I be shocked excessively if something said not to exist by many for the last millenium just suddenly showed up on my doorstep tomorrow? No. Why should I now? (seriously I ask here?) But that could be anything from an abnormal once thought extinct butterfly to a giant blue smurf, unicorn, dragon, or even a vampire. Seems pretty out there. But to me, not really - too many people read into things too much.

Ok, so now that I won the "lunacy" award for the day......... what's next? lol. :D

Interesting post Passingover. Goodonya.

Just wanted to say thank you for not ruling out the possibility to any extent, it seems a rare thing around here.

A fairly strange twist on a topic discussed to death. What is interesting is that this is the first thread I see after months that doens't pretend to be "only for we demonic and immortal souls ruling the night, don't come in unbelivers".

IMO they cannot exist. Anne Rice's, Bram Stoker's etc. vampires at least are purely fictional. I belive *if* a real immortal existed, it would be quite different from the sugar image hollywood gave.

I agree to some extent to this.. I don't believe that purely ricean and Stoker style classicals could possibly exist just because of the contradictions that it brings up in all forms of physics, mathematics, any science for that matter, not to mention logic and common sense. As I've said before the only way I think these types of classicals *could* exist, would be if they were governed by divine power, or at least some really strong magick.

Actually, if an immortal (as in an unaging human) would exist, and they were 'made' that way from normal life by another immortal, then it would be pretty likely they would more or less fit the hollywood image.

Reasoning: If as an immortal you have to pick someone who's going to be immortal as well and probably will be around with you for a long while, why pick someone who doesn't at least aproach human perfection? I guess it would depend on the first imortals tastes, but mostly these people would be those who the first imortal thinks have something worthy of being imortalised.

Secondly if you live forever without the negative influence from ageing, you'd probably get pretty good at every bit of life, know what to say, how to act, precisely how to move to capture peoples interest or get any other effect you'd like. Also they'd be able to develop personal tastes without influence from fashion or mass opinion to an extend no human can manage.

So if they existed anything like that they would probably apear to us as the most romantic, wonderfull beings imaginable, probably even moreso than hollywood can manage

Well, if you were to shoot me in the head I would die.

I drink blood out of a craving and not survival.

My 5 senses [except for sight] are pretty strong, but nothing really specail.

So, no Im not. I dont believe those exist but HEY I could be wrong.

spider, this isn't about talking about if YOU are a classical or not. It's about if classical vampires could exist, period. (And frankly, I don't want to waste my time reading unrelated posts...)

Now that I've covered that let's move on...


Just wanted to point out, most of your brain is used at one point or another, you can only access 10% at a time. 12% for geniuses.



I agree that one method of vampires existing would be strong magic or a divine power. (and to go on a tangent, do demons count as a divine power? Because an interpretation of classicals that a demon comes into the victim's body with their memories and personalities to an extent...)

But I think that a classical could exist without defying any fundemental laws of physics or sicence, but by either obeying and using the laws of magic... if there are any and such. But back to science! For immortality (or darn near close to it...) they may have some function to recognize unhealthy cells, and eliminating them, or having a thicker nucleus membrane, and one that keeps it's form during the splitting of the cell. (The membrane would just pinch off like the cell membrane does.) That could help stop mutations that cause cancer and such. Also if the vampire somehow had a system to recognize missing or damage portions of cells, and replacing them, so if a vampire was to loose a finger they could regain it.

Now this next statement I'm going to interpret in my favor: that the classicals need to drink blood to exist, but that there are possibley other factors. (Wa-la!) I'll be the first (actually I'm not... but it's a figure of speech) to say that a real classical vampire cannot survive just on blood, I think it would be plausible that a vampire needs both blood and normal food to survive. As for using the blood to survive... It's a relatively simple cell in comparison to other cells (and before the vampire became one, they had produced blood!) My only guess is that they have become mentally dependent on feeding- it gives them a rush of that one pleasure chemical in your brain. Or the uniqueness of blood (the iron aspect of it maybe?) is needed in maintaining the vampire's systems that allow it to be immortal.

As for possesing some sort of power... I'm once again at a loss. This may be the part where the vampires start defying some laws... But here's another way to look at it, since we don't understand much about the classical we may interpret something very down-to-earth (but unknown to us) as magical. Invisiblity could be our (humans!) interpretation of a vampire who has become very expierienced in stealth and moving swiftly. As for changing into a bat (warning, this is gonna be a stretch) maybe their attuned senses can reproduce the echos bats make, and they can somehow order the bats to do things... thus giving the vampire control over the bat. Yeah it's a stretch. And the increased rate of healing could be yet another system of biology that is part of the vampire...

Existence- Let me rip up my creation- I don't believe classicals (even my outline of one) could exist. The chances are too much against it.

As for not seeing proof or signs of classicals- yes I agree that they would benefit greatly from their expieriences... but it *might* be possible that they could have been killed off by now.... just a possiblity.

Well personally I believe in the existance of vampires.....but not the classical.

If they did exist then one of them would probably get on some power trip and start showing off then be discovered and inevidably [if thats how you spell it] be destroyed.

Evryone has diffrent opinions and/or beliefs but that type of creature seems to be just a little far fetched.

I am unfortunately too braindead and tired to add much to this discussion tonight (I want to get to reply to all your posts, eventually) but I just wanted to say I really appriciate the clear, well thought out mode of expression we are experiencing here. It means a lot to me to be able to read others opinions, thoughts, and arguments free of flames and abuse. Thankyou all so much (and i'm hoping I can think of smart, intelligent comments for this debate late today!).

I think you all made some pretty good scientific points, especially you, IWillFearNoEvil - it's interesting to hear some theoretical scientific concepts that may in fact back up the existence of a 'mythical' being.

I think the thing is, to believe in 'classicals' we must also believe to an extent in magick. By Magick, I mean the bending of the laws of physics, biology, nature et al in order to create a supernatural - that is beyond-nature - creature.

My personal belief, would err more towards a Ricean portrayl of a classical, as opposed to a Stoker-like, or more folk-lore approach to one. I do not believe, for instance, a classical would turn into a bat, be able to become invisible (although I do believe they could better 'sneak up' upon a person presenting the illusion of invisibility, due to heightened almost animalistic senses and abilities), or be repelled by symbols of 'holy power'. I do believe that they would possibly require more than blood to live on, and I do believe they COULD have sex (although probably not reproduce).

In essence, my definition of a classical adheres to the 'walking corpse' theory. But obviously, were a corpse to be walking it would be more zombie like, than vampire like. It takes a stretch of imagination to conceive a vampire would retain a human appearance, despite being esentially dead.

I do believe that a classical can 'make' another by exchange of blood, but this again requires a belief in the supernatural, or magicks - then again, lives can be saved by blood transfusions. Why could lives not be lengthened, or changed by the same?

Science cannot answer everything. Years ago, scientists would tell you the world was flat. That was believed implicitly to be true, and not corrected until Christopher Columbus (who everyone thought was a completely nutcase) proved them wrong. The sheer beauty of science in a way, I suppose, is that it aknowledges it does not know everything - and is questing for that greater knowledge. Perhaps some day, we will all truly know the answer to these 'dead ends' we face when defining a creature of 'myth'. Who knows.

i don't know exactly what to say but i believe in vampires i think i've seen one before i my self am not a vampire but i know they exist it's kind of like u.f.o.'s i know they are real because i've seen one. eventhe bible talks about vampires in revelations it talks about the double edged sword in the mouth that sounds like a vampire to me. :ph34r:

i quite agree, dont get me wrong, but what if its the other way around? what if they live longer than normal humans BECAUSE of their heightened perception of abilities? what if their abilities were as such that they knew how to cheat death out of a couple of decades? like if they knew what caused death, then they could like avoid it? im not going all weird or anything i just believe that any human or semi human form possesses the ability to dodge death but noone has the guts to endanger their own lives in the process of finding out. i just think vampires are smarter than that, they can discover without risk, because of their abilities.

This position has found effective contestation in "vampires in the Bible". If you can't handle a counter attack renounce to that.



I think this is a wrong starting point. To belive classical exist we should REWRITE the laws of physics, biology etc. A "bending" is not possible. If they existed the whole system of laws would be wrong. Your position seems to imply that the laws could be still valid.. but there would be a factor as magik that could escape them. That would be, in my humble opinion, Matrix and nothing more. No offence meant in all that.

rules can be bent. Especially when it comes to science... (Most of the time anyhow)

Not in that case, which would require to be explained too many bendings...

I'm not sure how to say this. I will probably have to edit this later when I come up with a better way to say it.

But I disagree. I see science (in the way you seem to intend?) as applying more within certain limits which are defined, in regards to defined certain things.

I see very few laws (can't think of any now to be honest?) which are held to apply universally even beyond that which is known at present without any sort of experimentation or data to back them up.

Examples are in order:

"A human who no longer has a heart beat can no longer walk."

This would be poor science, In my opinion.

Better:

"A human who no longer has a heart beat after can no longer walk in the conventional natural ways absent any enhancement, modification, or force of any sort to make them able to do so unconventionally."

To me there is a great difference.

And the second one leaves so much open I would say - and to me, THAT is science or what it should be. The first one, I'd say it is just false and the result of ignorance of many things that the person did not probably consider. Even within what I gave with the second one, there is a lot of ignorance on my part too. But you think about iy, can we help it really?

Magick and things existing outside our current percieved limits of thought, to me they seem to mesh into the same thing - at least in a way.

Summary: I would say that true science in itself is not really invalidated, what happens is that when we learn more -- as we expand our limits and knowledge of forces interacting -- science "grows". If we do not set limits with our "laws" and we assume that we know everything that exists within these limits (we have none that we declare, but we have many limits of what we percieve, no?), as well as how anything "outside them" interacts with that within them, yes, they will be probably "invalidated". But only because we were fools enough to do that in the first place.

Anyway, I'm sure this is off topic in some way and I am sorry for it.

edit: aw, hell, I just better leave it alone... sigh. nevermind. lol :D

totally agree with you there passingover

Here's an interesting thought.

If the human mind can conceive it, it can, indeed, exist.
We simply have yet to create it.

^_^ I agree with you for the most part as well Passing. I am just too tired to debate the parts I do not agree with right now...Sorry ^_^ Good post.

indeed, good post. I'll answer you but the, please, can we get back to the orginal issue? Tnx :D

You say science "grows". That's true. But let's make a stupid example: we can date fossils with carbon 14 (hope it is well translated, I have no idea of the denomination of this method in english). Let's say it is precise to the point of dating exactly the year (not so, but let's suppose it). We define as statement after successful sperimentation that "Carbon 14 is a method that gives the possibility to date with extreme precision fossils etc.". After years we discover that with a particular fossil we dated some time before is much older than we thought. At this point there is no scientific rule damaged. Even if we can't find the cause of that we still can declare Carbon 14 dates with extreme precision exept from that fossil.


Let's consider the magik theory. We shall define the word "magik": manifestation beating scientific rules. No more than that. I precise that I consider magick what it is universally associated to the word and so for ex. telekinesys, manipulation etc.
If you refer to something else you should define it differently.
If you can let an object fly with your thought, if you can manipulate variously the world and so on, you are not bending the scientific rules. You are beating them completely. Gravity for ex. would be a false concept. If you could let an object fly with your thought I would consider more possible that gravity is nonexisting and man commonly can't use an ability he possesses by nature. In that case the rule should be rewritten, it is not bent. Consider a vampire: transforming he would beat the laws of matter not simply, flying he would beat gravity and so on. I would say they are beaten not bent cause they are considered universal laws.
My two cents.

Now back to:

One more thing, soulforged -

It would not neccesarily mean 'beating' the laws of science. The thing about the 'laws of science' is they are constantly in flux - changeing and evolving with each new peice of information we, as humans, discover about the world around us. It also goes some way into the knowledge we have about an unknown entity - for instance, a child would tell you that it defies the law of gravity to have an aeroplane soar through the sky. How could such a heavy, leaden object possibly take to the air? A child thinks this way, because they are not aware of the other factors that go into making a aeroplane fly. In the same way, we as a race know very little of what goes into 'magick' or the supernatural. We don't know about spirits, or about telekenisis, or psychokenisis. Well, that is to say - we don't know enough to theorise what is behind it - we simply know enough to classify it.

Does that make sense? Sorry i'm a bit distracted. ^_^

It makes perfectly sense aeternus. Actually I shall apologize for my last post; it contains very poor examples and gives a completely different idea of what I want to say. In any case, the discussion is interesting but not sticking to the subject so let's come back to it!

I believe they exist. How boring is it if it's just normal human beings on earth. I'm not saying they are a different species form birth or anything, but...i think it's a path that some of our souls will take and turn to when embraced.

click here for vampire breathing

This is the link you look for

I personally don't believe in the "Classical" Vampires. I don't even believe in the HLV or PsiVampires. I believe that there is a medical reason for the people that like to refer to themselves as Sanguines. But then again it could be more mental than anything. Believe in something enough and to you it will become reality and truth.

If I was to contemplate such a thing as the undead, or the cursed, it would be more along the lines of Caine's descendants. I'm in no means a religious person, but the bible has been around for awhile. It's a very yes/no subject for me. At times I think that Noah went up into the mountains and created the ten commandments to better get a grip on the people he was leading. Their concept of time has was different than ours. I can't remember how many days Noah was supposed to have been in the mountains conversing with God, but who is to say he was really up there for a few years? Hence the reason his hair turned gray. Or maybe he was just genetically born that way and the people were driving him crazy? We can't really say, because we weren't there. But back to my theory of the undead, if they were real, in my opinion I think they would be the cursed children of Caine. I don't think the cursed would have supernatural powers. Why would God curse one of his own to only have them turn into this super monster?

Hey Shay, good to have you aboard sometimes! ;)

I like very much some of these ideas. I don't know if the powers of Cain (following that theory) are given by God... I think it's not necessarily implied. On the other side, there is no point in the Bible or in the apocrypha where Cain's turning into a vampiric form is implied, why do you think it would be credible? Obviously, if you were a beliver...

Hey as Jack Skellington said "Just because you cannot see it, doesn't mean you can't believe it"


Am I right?

ok..here is my own personal opinion.

Never say never.... thats the short version.

Here's the long version...

.. throughout mankinds evolutionary history there have been offshoots that have not thrived and have died out.. the neanderthal for one. There are many things in this world that are not public knowledge, some governments know of some that are kept secret in parts of the world that have never seen a train.

Now if you believe in witchcraft you could say this is magic.. if you are an atheist it is aquired knowledge.. either way it is the use of knowledge and wisdom that we do not know yet...

Now simply because we do not 'know' it or have a scientific way to 'prove' it YET, does not then render it impossible.

We as a race are still evolving.. who is to say that these things will not become explainable in the years to come... who is to say that they dont exsist...The only ones who know if they are real are themselves....

Given our human heritage for cutting up things that we dont understand to see how it works.. I cannot say that i am suprised that these beings, if they are real, are not chomping at the bit to announce their presence.

The other point I had to make was this.. the human mind is a complex machine.. and if classical vampires are an evolutionary offshoot with thousends of years to evolve who is to say that they wont learn how to access more than the 10 or 12 percent of their brain at a time.. who is to say that they will not absorb information and assimilate it much quicker than us mere mortals?

When talking about the realms of possibility one has to include the likely probability and my personal opinion is that if classical vampires are possible then advanced brainfunction is highly probable...